Halifax LL343 August 31, 1944

[Larry]

You will see from a search of the London Gazette, that Francis Sayles was awarded the DFM on 4th June 1943. See this link.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issu...pplements/3788

Look on the right hand side of the page under Flt Sgt

[Wim de Meester]

Perhaps I can add some useful information. That night two British a/c were lost due to action of the socalled VP-Flottilla Windhuk (VP2007, VP2011, VP2004 and M3234) which guarded the entrances to the Scheldt rivers at position AN8762.

RM72-217 reports as follows:
At 01.58 the Cdt of VP2007 reports that an enemy a/c flew in a direct line over his vessel at a height of approx. 200 metres. The order to open fire is immediately given and the foremost 2 cm gun (gunner Mtr.ObGefr. Baumann) was able to fire 8-10 rounds which all struck home. The a/c caught fire and crashed into the sea at approx. 2000 metres distance from the flottilla.

After the fires extinquished themselves the area was searched for both survivors and information till 06.05 hours. Then they had to abandon the operation in order to be in port before the RAF showed up again.

The kill was confirmed by both Schützenkönig (Strongpoint) and Westkapelle (Coastalbattery) which reported that an e/a was shot down by the boats on station.

The 4 ships had used 11 x 8,8 cm, 22 x 3,7 cm, 327 x 2 cm, 112 x 1,5 cm and 68 x LMG.

Indeed, on 5 September 1944 two bodies washed ashore at resp. Schelphoek and Westenschouwen. They were believed to be Canadian airmen. One day later a third body washed ashore at Zierikzee and all three were buried at the Haamstede cemetery on 8 September. In a footnote I have clearly indicated that these men could be/ might have been part of the lost crew but that it was not more than a possibility and that it simply can't be excluded as such.
Nothing more, nothing less.

[Osric122]

Thanks for the information. I have tried to look at this from the perspective of plausibility. I am new to researching this material and am hampered by distance - I live in Canada - and language - I do not understand Dutch or German. So I am grateful for the perspective of others like yourself who have access to materials. That said it seems to me that records from the local police, Red Cross and/or the Haamstede Luftwaffe base itself are potentially starting points to try and understand the link between the crash on August 31 and the bodies that washed up on the 5th and 8th of September. I have seen a translation of one police report for a body that was washed up after an unrelated crash and there was a fair amount of detail including a physical description of the body.

Does anyone know how to access these records or have ideas for other record sets to try and research this further?

Also I would be interested in seeing photos if anyone has them of the headstones of the three unknown Canadian airmen in Bergen op Zoom cemetery.

Thanks again for the contributions to date.

Jeff

[dave jones]

Francis Sayles won his DFM flying with 166 squadron on a mission to Manhiem. A local newspaper of the time states they refused to alter course dispite being picked up by search lights and heavy flack. Could I just say its so nice to hear from you all. I thought I was on my own in this search. I have paid a few visits to the National Achieves at Kew but can't give you anything you don't know sorry

[Osric122]

Hi Dave,

I sent you a couple of private posts. I would be very interested in sharing research.

Jeff

[dave jones]

I don't understand how the bodies on the beach were identified as Canadian but not by name or serial number. would it be usual for RAF and RCAF crew to fly without ID when on Special OPs. Could anybody enlighten me on this. It seems sad that a little more effort wasn't made after the war to solve these queries

[predictedflak]

Originally Posted by dave jones

I don't understand how the bodies on the beach were identified as Canadian but not by name or serial number. would it be usual for RAF and RCAF crew to fly without ID when on Special OPs. Could anybody enlighten me on this. It seems sad that a little more effort wasn't made after the war to solve these queries

Things like a "Canada" flash on their tunics would certainly be one giveaway.

I would recommend Stuart Hadaway's book "Missing Believed Killed" to get some idea of what the post war searches for missing was like. Pre-CSI Miami days with men, many ex aircrew exhuming hastily buried, badly burned and decomposed bodies. They did the best they could given the circumstances.

Jeff, you really should look at the service files of the Canadians onboard at the Library & Archives Canada in Ottawa. It doesn't matter what language some original local documents were written in. The services files all have translations into English and sometimes a few pages answers 65 years of questions.

PF

[Osric122]

Thanks for the suggestion PF.
I have a copy of my grandfather's service record, but there is little information on his service in the UK. It also reports him as missing, and does not mention the bodies that washed up on shore in the week after the crash.

[ssg keay]

In a lot of cases the bodies were not complete after a crash. ID tags could have been torn/ripped off. The battle dress uniform normally had, like predicted stated, the country's flash on it. This was sown on and harder to be torn off. if the position of the FLAK boats was known, then locating the plane wreck is not completely impossible. My buddy's group just purchased a side scan sonar and we have a magnetometer. If would be interesting to see the German report (I read and speak German) and see if the crash-site/impact point can be callculated from there. Would be worth a try. Danny

[Osric122]

Originally Posted by ssg keay

In a lot of cases the bodies were not complete after a crash. ID tags could have been torn/ripped off. The battle dress uniform normally had, like predicted stated, the country's flash on it. This was sown on and harder to be torn off. if the position of the FLAK boats was known, then locating the plane wreck is not completely impossible. My buddy's group just purchased a side scan sonar and we have a magnetometer. If would be interesting to see the German report (I read and speak German) and see if the crash-site/impact point can be callculated from there. Would be worth a try. Danny

Hi Danny,

there is a copy of records in Dutch and German in the pdf at :
http://www.wingstovictory.nl/databas...php?wtv_id=414

It would be really something to have a fix on the wreck. I know there is a project in the UK trying to identify the many planes that crashed into the North Sea and Channel. I will try and find their contact information and see if they have investigated this area also.

Jeff