Claims of 151. Wing on 6.10.41: 2 or 3 Ju 88?

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

I am woder about differece between claims of 151. Wing on 6.10.41?

1. There are following list of victories: 3 enemy were shot down for certain (2xJu 88 + 1 Me 109), next were 3 Ju 88s counted as "probables" and next 6 Ju 88s were counted as "damaged", according: R.A.F in Russia by H. Griffith, p. 69.

2. As I rigth remember pilots of 151. Wing (81+134 Sqn) were credited with with 3 certain destroyed Ju 88s. Such amout of victories is in C-F Geust's book Red Stars 4, or in other sources. So there are very often given such data of 151. Wings succes in Russia as: 11 Me 109 + 3 Ju 88 official credited as victories/destroyed, not counted probables and damaged. It was onle one battle Hurricanes versus Ju 88s.

In this comparnision 1. v. 2. one Ju 88 is "missing"?

BTW.
There is very well know for me, that during this attack KG 30 had lost in fact 3 Ju 88 A-5s, this is not the point.

Regards,
mirekw

[Andrei Demjanko]

There is a great article by Mark Sheppard available online covering operations of 151 Wing in USSR:

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/englis...anes/index.htm

This article was evidently written using unit records and it mentions two Ju88's destroyed, four Ju88 as a probable and five as damaged on 06.10.41, the difference in totals probably came from the fact that each confirmed Ju88 was shared by two pilots, as mentioned in the text

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Hi thanks, :-)
I know it very well, and due to this I make this asking. During the same battle over Vayenga against Ju 88s A-5 of I/KG 30, Soviet fighters (of 72. SAP VVS NF) had claimed next 6 destroyed Ju 88s. So total Soviet and British units had claimed 8 destoyed Ju 88s plus aditional one Me 109 by British.

The last victories do not fit in such counting like: Griffin (who was the first one writng about this events, during the war), Sheppard and Geust.

There are given in Griffin's book total 12 achived victories before the last battle agains Ju 88 and Me 109. Somewhere one victory is wrong credit or misleading credited?
There are 12 Me 109 destroyed (before 6.10. in Griffin's book) + the last 3 one (2 Ju 88 + 1 Me 109) which giving total 15 not 14 as usualy are written.
Second option: Griffin had made wrong couting (one Me 109 too much)?

Regards,
mirekw

[timothy]

Fascinating!
I don't recall any Soviet fighters on that day. Maybe I was looking the other way??

And although ours was 'confirmed', I'm not happy with that.

That's me setting out.

= Tim

PS - just checked with a friend on the other squadron & he can't recall them either.....??

PPS - just been thinking - I cannot understand how ANY of that raid made it home. For my part, it was because I was a poor shot - couldn't hit a Pheasant!!

[markjsheppard]

Mirek

Claims and loses. There were 14 Ju88's on 6th Oct 1941. Two definate loses. Lots of duplicate claims to probables and damaged. Another crash/written off on landing at Petsamo.

regards

Mark

Kills to 151 Wing in Russia.
81 Squadron.
12th Sept
Z5122 P/O 'Bas' Bush. Bf110 Damaged.
12th Sept
Z4018 Sgt 'Wag' Haw Bf109E Destroyed.
Z5157 P/O 'Jimmy' Walker . Bf109E Destroyed.
Z4006 Sgt 'Ibby' Waud. Bf109E Destroyed.*
Z4006 Sgt 'Ibby' Waud. He126 Probable*

17th Sept
Z5208 Sgt 'Wag' Haw. Bf109E Destroyed.
Z4017 P/O ‘Bas’ Bush Bf109E Destroyed*
Z5207 Sgt 'Avro’ Anson 1/3
Z5228 Sgt 'Gin Bottle' Sims. 1/3 Bf109E Destroyed.*
BD792 S/Ldr 'Tony' Rook. 1/3

26th Sept
Z5227 P/O 'Scottie' Edmiston. Bf109F Probable
BD818 P/O ‘Artie’ Holmes Bf109F? Destroyed
Z4006 Sgt 'Butch' Reed Bf109F? Destroyed.

27th Sept
Z5227 P/O 'Scottie' Edmiston. Bf109F? Destroyed.
Z4018 Sgt 'Wag' Haw. Bf109F? Destroyed.

6th October.
Z5207 F/Lt 'Micky' Rook. Bf109F Destroyed.
BD792 S/Ldr A H Rook/Furneaque Ju88 Destroyed*
BD792 S/Ldr Rook/P/O Ramsay Ju88 Probable
Z5157 P/O D Ramsay/134 a/c Ju88 Probable
Z5228 F/O 'Mac' McGregor Ju88 Probable
Z5209 P/O 'Jimmy' Walker Ju88 Probable
BD822 Sgt 'Bish' Bishop Ju88 Damaged.
Z4006 Sgt 'Freddie' Crewe Ju88 Damaged

134 Squadron.
6th October
Z3978 P/O Cameron Ju88 Probable
Z3978 P/O Cameron Ju88 Damaged
Z5134 Sgt Gould Ju88 Damaged
Z5236 F/O Elkington /Barnes Ju88 Destroyed *


* Confirmed in Luftwaffe loses.
_ Confirmed as hitting the ground by independent RAF pilots, not Russians

Absturz- Hurricanes151 Wing v Bf109E’s I/JG77.

12th September 1941

Three Bf109E’s and one Hs126 were claimed as shot down.
German Luftwaffe records indicate the following:
(1) 3/JG77 Bf109E7 W.Nr1075 Yellow 10 by Liza-Bucht, Luftkampf, 100% Ltn Eckerdt v. d. Lühe gefallen.
(2) I/JG77 Bf109E7 W.Nr4078 by Nicht Gemeldet,. Notlandung infolge Motorstorung. 100%.
(3) 1/(H)32 Hs126 W.Nr3461 by location Lizabucht. Reason Jagerbeschuss Air Combat 30%.

17th September 1941

Three Bf109E’s were claimed as shot down.
German Luftwaffe records indicate the following:
(1) 2/JG77 Bf109E3 W.Nr4004 Red 4 by Zapad Liza. Jagerbeschuss 100%. Fw Joseph Siglmair Vermißt. (Actually 14./JG77)
(2) 4/JG77 Bf109E7 W.Nr6124 by Bereslawi, Jagerbeschuss-20% damage. (Thought to be 14./JG77)

26th September 1941

Two Bf109F’s? (E7;s?) were claimed as shot down and one probable.
No German Luftwaffe records indicate any damage to Bf109’s on this day.

27th September 1941

Two Bf109F’s (E7;s?) were claimed as shot down.
No German Luftwaffe records indicate any damage to Bf109’s on this day.

6th October 1941

One Bf109E’s were claimed as shot down. (A flight of six of I/JG77 were esorting fourteen Ju88’s)
(German Luftwaffe records for the 6th October indicate the following -
(1) I/KG30 Ju88A5, W.Nr626, 4D+LL. Location Unbekannt-unknown, Unbekannt-unknown, 100%. Crew missing.
(2) I/KG30 Ju88A5, W.Nr4155 4D+KL. Location Unbekannt-unknown, Unbekannt-unknown, 100%. Crew missing.
(3) I/KG30 Ju88 A5, W.Nr292 4D+?L. Location Fl. Pl Petsamo-. Brauchlanung nach Jagerbeschuss, 100%..

[markjsheppard]

Mirek

A Bf110 was also given credit to 81 Sqn even though they had no cmbat or claims with a Bf1110 on that day. Cannot recall the day.

This might be the other one!

regards

Mark

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Hi
Thanks for the list Mark, reading some materials about amount of Wing's succes I have met different figures.
The first is in Griffin's book, when he had wrote about 12 certian victories/destroyed enemy planes before 6.10.41 (which was paid by Russian 1000 rubles/ per destroyed planes, all 12 000 rubles).
Next ones were these 3 from 6.10., which total gives 12 plus 2 Ju 88 plus 1 Me 109 = 15 certian planes.

Second, when you read: The Royal Air Force 1939-1945. Vol. II, by D. Richards & H. St. G. Saunders, both written about: “No further casualties were suffered in later combats, and at the end of its five weeks' spell of operations the Wing was able to claim, for the loss of this single machine, sixteen enemy aircraft destroyed, four probably destroyed, and seven damaged”.
Sometimes I have met 15 certian victories as caunted in Griffin's book.

I think, that I have just found this two "missing" in Griffin:-)

Griffin (p. 50) had given for 17.09. four certain victories, in your list are 3.
Next is on 26.09. (p. 61): he is giving 3 confirmed as a certian and in your list are 2 certain, 1 next probably.

So he could probably had done a mistake (overcredited on 2 victories or you have undercredited for 2 victories)?

So when we reduce this 2 we will get 10 certian plus 3 next from 6.10. total will be: 13 certain destroyed planes plus 7 probables and 5 damaged, or 15 certian, 5 probables plus 5 damaged.

And on 6.10.41 pararell to Wings claims next 5-6 Ju 88s were credited for Soviet 72. SAP VVS NF.

Regards,
mirekw

[timothy]

Off at a tangent again, Mark, but I would like to use this thread to even scores. I would like to suggest that we have not always been the only 'overclaimers' - see 26/7 September.

Is it appropriate to quote Bergstrom's quote by Hugo Dahmer re 26 September, wherein he & his chums laid into 6 of us - "don't know how many got shot down....some may have escaped....but all were hit"? All our records (via those on the ground) show that not one of our aircraft was damaged.

Yes - in all theatres there have been overclaims, for one reason or t'other, but fair's fair?

= Tim

[markjsheppard]

Tim/Mirek,

Even Müller claims a Hurricane on the 27th Sept - 151 Wing lost none.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/mullerr.html

17th Sept 1941 - one Bf110 credited to 81 Sqn by Soviet Observation Corp. (no Hurricane pilot claimed/had a combat with a Bf110 this day).

6th October - records say 2 Ju88, 1Bf109F (E with pointed spinner), 3 probable and 4 damaged.

As for Griffin's book - he was the Adjutant. I have all of his diary notes and rough typed reports (from his daughter).

regards

Mark

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Is it appropriate to quote Bergstrom's quote by Hugo Dahmer re 26 September, wherein he & his chums laid into 6 of us - "don't know how many got shot down....some may have escaped....but all were hit"? All our records (via those on the ground) show that not one of our aircraft was damaged.

About Bergstrom's books (both about Barbarossa, from 2000 and next from 2007) I can say as about 10 years or so about his 1-st book, there are plenty of error and many mitology, and a few facts. Bergstrom writes fast, messy, shallow and with plenty of mistakes! The same he has done in second "improved" edition.

1. The same is with Dahmer's claims in his book. One big error.
In fact he Dahmer did it, but not on 26.09.41, but on 16.11.41. German shot down all zvieno of 3 Soviet Hurricanes (3 pilots KIA) from 3./78. IAP VVS NF. Dahmer writes about shot down of 6 Hurricanes in autumn of 1941 (not specifie exacte data as 26.09.), which he and his unit total destroyed. In fact Germans destroyed only 3 Hurricanes in this battle and they did it as he wrote: from near distans, from the tails of Hurricanes, pilot were total unexpected. One of KIA was an ace P. Siemienko, who had already 7 victories. Next two KIA were: Bulytsev, Kabatski. There were unaware of their deaths.
So, Dahmer was right but had made 100% overclaiming, as with memories sometimes happend, but it had in fact happend.

2. Yes there were no Me 109 F-4 on this area in 1941. This type had coem to the North next year spring-sammer, when all units had got this verson.
During 1941, there were only Me 109 E-1, E-3, E-7 and some version T.

3. So, it looks like Griffin had done a first mistake, which later were repeated many times for the next.

4. There are for Soviet side (about 6.10.) such information: 2 Ju 88 shot down by Soviet fighters and next one by A/A battery, all 3 Ju 88. Next Soiet source mentioned about 5 Ju 88 shot down. Maybe this 5 victories including 2 British one?
14 Ju 88s had attacked 2 soviet airfields: Vayenga-1 and Vajenga-2.

Regards,
mirekw