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Old 13th October 2010, 19:00
walshlee walshlee is offline
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Luftwaffe Me109 losses November 1, 1940

Can anyone help me find a list of Me109s and pilots that were shot down on November 1, 1940. P/O Cecil Henry Saunder flying Spitfire X4555 QJ-J shot down a Me109 that afternoon before crashing near Hersden with shot up wrists and a bum full of shrapnel.

Are there any lists of pilots and Me109 Wrk no. that were lost that day? Was the pilot killed or taken POW?

Events of Nov 1, 1940:

This aircraft (Spitfire X4555 QJ-?) crashed at Chislet Colliery, Hersden Village, Canterbury. He and his wingman F/O MC Kinder were directed to intercept 50 Ju87's and Me110's, the Stukas were dive bombing a convoy.
Saunders radio failed and after shooting down a Ju87 he could not hear a warning about a Me109 on his tail. The enemy fire broke both his wrists, severed an artery and he had shell splinters in his buttocks. He managed to shoot down his attacker but then crash-landed beside the Canterbury to Ramsgate road where an ambulance picked him up.

Can anyone help?
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Old 13th October 2010, 21:14
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Me109 losses November 1, 1940

Hi Lee

Checking RAF Fighter Command Victory claims 1939-40
Saunders claimed one Bf 110 as damaged over Thames Estuary/English Channel on a morning mission appx at 10.40H
During an afternoon mission a large number of claims were made by 92Sq over the same Estuary where Saunders claimed one Ju 88 as destroyed. His wingman Kinder claimed 2 destroyed (Ju 88 and Ju 87) and one damaged (Bf 109), the latter near Herne Bay. The 92 Sq claims were made at and around appx 15.00H.

As per Battle of Britain the forgotten months November and December 1940,
both Saunders' and Kinder's Spits were damaged and both had to crash land their aircraft.

German losses were one Ju 87 lost off Nore at 14.20H (15.20H UK time). One Bf 109 was damaged during the fighting, but it is impossible to determine who could have been the British pilot behind this, but hardly Saunders who is not listed as claiming any Bf 109 at all, but Kinder is a possibillity of course, although I feel some of the more famous pilots such as S/L Kent and Sgt Kingaby also should be considered.

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Old 13th October 2010, 22:38
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Me109 losses November 1, 1940

This is what is written about this combat in the book “Battle of Britain-The Forgotten Months, November and December 1940, by John Foreman. ISBN 1-871187-02-8:

"(At around 1330 hours) 74 and 92 Squadrons were ordered away from Biggin Hill to intercept an incoming raid. Squadron Leader J. A. Kent, leading ten Spitfires of 92 Squadron, reported:
“We were ordered to patrol Biggin Hill-Hornchurch patrol line at 15,000 feet in company with 74 Squadron. Shortly after take-off we saw trails in the sky made by a large number of aircraft which, by their formation, were hostile. We climbed up and took up our patrol line at 22000 feet as orders had been changed. After patrolling for a while, we were told to patrol Canterbury- Margate. Shortly after this we were told that 50 Junkers were coming in, but we were not told their height. We were then told to fly north to Colchester as the Junkers were coming in from the sea. Halfway across the estuary we were told to vector 270°, which we did. Shortly after I noticed four or five aircraft which I at first took to be our own fighters, circling round at about 12000 feet, we being at feet. I then noticed that they had bright yellow noses, and immediately attacked. I got behind an Me 109 and opened fire. He manoeuvred well and after a near collision he dived away and I got a good shot at him. After that he dived steeply, pulled out into a more gentle dive and went into the clouds. I followed close behind and when I came out I was just in time to see him hit the water.”
Kent found himself isolated, and quite close to the French coastline. He climbed through the clouds to recross the Channel and near Herne Bay saw four Messerschmitts climbing out of the clouds south of him. He attempted to chase them, but they were too far away to be caught; he abandoned the pursuit and returned to Biggin Hill.
The German aircraft were twenty Ju 87 B ‘Stukas’ of StG.1, with Bf 109 escort provided by JG26. The bombers, making their first appearance in British airspace since August 18th, had been briefed to attack a convoy off the Nore, while a further Stuka formation attacked shipping in the Dover Straits. The German fighter pilots proved equal to the challenge and succeeded in holding the majority of the British pilots at bay. Only Pilot Officers M. C. Kinder and C. H. Saunders managed to get amongst the bombers, Saunders claiming one destroyed. Kinder sighted a Ju 88, which he attacked and claimed to have shot down, but was then himself attacked by a Bf 109, which damaged his Spitfire by blowing the end of the port wing off. Kinder was wounded in the left arm and leg. Clamping his wounded arm to his leg in an attempt to staunch the bleeding from both, he engaged his attacker, finally losing sight of it over Herne Bay and claiming it damaged. Feeling now extremely unwell, Kinder crash-landed and walked almost a mile to the nearest farmhouse to summon assistance. Saunders' Spitfire was also badly shot about, but he returned safely. The remainder of the Spitfire pilots had become embroiled with the escorts; Sergeant D. E. Kingaby claimed a Bf 109 destroyed, while Flight Lieutenant R. H. Holland, Pilot Officer A. C. Bartley and Adj De Montbron joined forces to attack another, claiming this shot down into the sea just north of Manston.
74 Squadron were engaged near Maidstone, and fought the '109s out to the coast, losing Flight Lieutenant W. H. Nelson, who was shot down and killed. Two further Spitfires, flown by Sergeant H. J. Soars and Flight Sergeant F. P. Burnard, were attacked and badly damaged. Burnard, despite having been wounded, managed to return to Biggin Hill, but Soars' aircraft is believed to have crashed off Dover. Soars was later admitted to the Victoria Hospital, Folkestone, after he had baled out into the sea.
One Stuka was actually shot down during this combat, Gefreiter Werner Karrach's '6G + KN' crashing into the sea off the Nore at 14.20 hours.
During the fight over the estuary, Spitfires were claimed by Leutnant Heinemann of I/JG26 and by Oberleutnant Ebersberger of II Gruppe, while two more were claimed by Major Adolf Galland, the Geschwaderkommodore, and by Hauptmann Walter Adolph, the Gruppenkommandeur of II Gruppe, in the combat against 74 Squadron. Some of the times are questionable, but it seems clear that Kinder fell to Ebersberger, near Herne Bay. Only one casualty was sustained by the German fighters, a Bf 109 of 1/JG 26 which crash-landed at Audembert, France, with battle damage."

German losses in this battle:

Bf 109 E-1 WNr 6357 of 1./JG 26 crash-landed on return on Audembert airfield, 40% damage (repairable), pilot unhurt (and so not recorded )

Ju 87 B-1 WNr 5227 G6+KS of 5./StG 1 shot down and landed in the Thames Estuary east of the Nore with its engine on fire at 1430 hrs. Gefr W Karrach (pilot) was killed but his gunner, Gefr M Aulehner, was picked up by a motor torpedo boat and taken prisoner. This data is extracted from the book "The Blitz Then and Now, volume 2. September 1940 – May 1941", collective work, ISBN 0-900913-54-1. In this book, the loss cause of the Stuka is given as "AA fire from a small ship it attacked", but probably it was shot at both by fighters and AA.
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