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Old 21st October 2020, 09:16
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Kurt Ubben's total, an explaination.

Hi Guys

Have just received Erik Momeek's latest publications(at lest the European post services are still working) "Am Himmel Frankreichs JG2 Band 6"excellent work with all claims mentioned for the period the book covers i.e 1944. Some very nice rudder photos showing "claims markings", which I have always found very interesting.

But back to Kurt Ubben, in Mombeeks latest "Luftwaffe Gallery"..."Luck, Fate and destiny 2 publication like above there are some excellent rudder photos, there are several of Kurt Ubben;s mounts. It has since the war always been believed that Ubben had 110 victories, whereas John Foreman and myself believed the total to be ninety-three(plus thirteen unconfirmed). Erik's photos lead me to believe the true total is ninety-two confirmed, and thirteen unconfirmed, the 2nd claim John and myself had listed(19th May 1940) would appear to have only been accepted as a staffel claim. The rudder photographs, and artwork show that Ubben included not only in his total, but also on his rudder unconfirmed claims, these he clearly shows marked in different colours. It is also clear that Ubben marked his claims bars with a date for each, and National markings, and these exactly match the mikrofilm entries. A later rudder shows eighty-eight victory bars, but no other details.

Also in this publication is a very useful section on how a claim was made, where to look finding a pilots claims, and all about the points system in the West. An investigation into the claims of Walter Loos is very useful in explaining why so many Luftwaffe aces "totals" are so much higher than actual victories i.e his total is based points not victories. This doesn't explain the Ubben total, that is down to including unconfirmed in his total. Some other high totalers certainly did not include unconfirmed in their totals.

With Ubben I can only imagine that though some of his claims being unconfirmed, that he himself believed/knew they had fallen, possibly he even saw them hit the ground, but had no witness.

The "honesty" researchers can probably workout if Ubben was honest or not. Personally I think so, this is based solely on his claims pattern and large number of unconfirmed claimed, not matching his claims against Allied losses.

Anyway hope this explains in detail why we had downgraded Ubben's 110 down to 92.

Almost every "aces" reduced total can be explained away, Ubben is just one, and in one of several way.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 25th October 2020, 09:10
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Kurt Ubben's total, an explaination.

Adding to the above, has anybody a photo of his rudder with more than eighty-eight bars, or a "100" plaque.
With these "100" plaques I believe not all pilots had such a big party after reaching this landmark total, I think I have seen fifteen, and there were about ninety pilots with "100".

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 27th October 2020, 20:57
Jochen Prien Jochen Prien is offline
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Re: Kurt Ubben's total, an explaination.

Dear Johannes,
I have read this thread with interest but cannot concur with your conclusions. There are several official sources and documents which show that Kurt Ubben was credited with at least 106 aerial victories until 15 Februay 1943.

Just to quote some of the a/m sources - the Tagesmeldungen of the FliVo of 16th and 18th Armies for September 1942 show his 90th and 91st claim.

A summary of the claims filed by III./JG77 between 8 and 31 January 1943 shows a total of 19 for the Gruppe, 4 of them by Ubben, his claims no. 99 to 102.

Tagesmeldungen of FliFü Afrika show # 93, a Hurricane on 5 November 1942 ( correct date 6 November 1942 ), # 100 and 101 on 14 January 1943 ( also mentioned in a German Wochenschau ), # 104 and 105 on 8 February 1943 and # 106 on 15 February 1943.

It seems rather unprobable that all these claim numbers were allocated if they were not backed by the corresponding confirmations. True, not all claims filed by fighter pilots can be found in the RLM Abschussfilme, but then JG 77 is one of the units that suffers from the greatest gaps in the films. And of course the number of - confirmed - claims does not necessarily reflect the true number of a/c that actually fell to Kurt Ubben.

KR

Jochen Prien

Last edited by Jochen Prien; 27th October 2020 at 21:47.
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Old 27th October 2020, 21:35
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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Re: Kurt Ubben's total, an explaination.

Dr. Prien,

I believe you have typoed 1944 for 1943 in the third line/para of your post. Your edit window should still be open for a day at least so you can correct it.

Enjoy!

Frank.
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Old 27th October 2020, 21:48
Jochen Prien Jochen Prien is offline
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Re: Kurt Ubben's total, an explaination.

Dear Frank,

much obliged - has been edited.

KR

Jochen Prien
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Old 28th October 2020, 11:08
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Kurt Ubben's total, an explaination.

Hi Jochen

Many thanks for your comments and explanations. Yes JG77 does have gaps, firstly some of the earlier typed-out pre daily claims mikrofilms are missing, and gaps again with certain staffels during 1942/1943, and with all unit January 1944 in the West, but we have the mikrofilms for each staffel with date and time only. But the mikrofilms are always consistent.

I am just rewriting my Günther Schack abschüßelist using his Leistungsbuch, I always thought his total of 174 to be very reliable, yet it would appear he thought his total to he 167, of these I found two missing from the mikrofilms, but at a point when the anerk.nr's are missing, but these number appear later. Whats clear is that he didn't include A.S.M claims in his total, there were six of these. Seems A.S.M claims were treated differently by the RLM, but it doesn't mean they were never confirmed. As mentioned before some pilots included unconfirmed claims in there totals, others did not, some even included unconfirmed on their rudder marking, but usually marked them as different in some way. I had found two of Günther Rall's claims missing from the mikrofilms, but the mikrofilm with date and time only included claims matching the exact date and time of these two claims, also with Rall his 199-200 were duplicated exactly a month late....yes, the mikrofilms are not perfect, but as I say consistent. some of Werner Schroer's claims are marked on his units Staffeltafel as unconfirmed, and the mikrofilms are missing these, but include all those on the Staffeltafel marked as confirmed.

I should think we will never known every claim, and every mistake be it printing or research we publish ends up being duplicated until thought fact. Guess our subject will not be so interesting if we know all the facts.

Keep well

Johannes
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