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  #1  
Old 4th July 2017, 10:35
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knusel knusel is offline
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Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

Good morning Gentlemen,

we know that the F4F/FM-1 scored a total of 1012 kills.
Is it possible to find out how many of these were F4F kills and how many were FM-1 kills, rescpectively ?

Kind regards,

Michael
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Old 12th July 2017, 15:21
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

Hi Michael
the noted Naval Aviation author Barrett Tillman has arrived at these figures ( other sources can vary but I'd go with Barrett).
US Navy F4Fs.......520.5
US Marine F4Fs.....562.0
US Navy FMs........432.0 ( 422 by FM-2s).
This would suggest 10 by FM-1s; as these were operating in the Atlantic on CVEs they had few opportunities for claims. Many FM-2 victories were Kamikazes.
**Please note these are only victories by US Wildcats not including a few by Royal Navy Martlets / Wildcats ( Barrett says 67).
Regards
Nick
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Old 12th July 2017, 16:36
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

According to Squadron/Signal #191 on the F4F, 311 FM-1 were delivered to the FAA (as Martlet MkV), equipping 36 squadrons ....... no indication of kills, only that a He111 and Fw200 were shot down by 881Sq on 12/2/44. They saw action from Feb 1944 in attacking the Tirpitz, the invasion of southern France and the far East.
340 FM-2 were delivered to the FAA as Wildcat MkVI, from August 1944. Mention is made of 4 Bf109G claims on 26/3/45 off the Norwegian coast.
Cheers
Peter
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Old 14th July 2017, 12:09
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

Hello Nick & Peter,

very interesting. Barrett Tillman's F4F total of 1082,5 is slightly higher than the 1002 implied by Robert Allen's table.
The production figures given in the internet for the F4F, FM1 and FM2, respectively vary considerably. Can you tell me which source is the most valid ?

Michael
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Old 17th July 2017, 21:40
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

I use this list of Bu.Aer. serials from Joe's site but was checked against several publications as follow ( which vary somewhat)..........
http://www.joebaugher.com/navy_serials/navyserials.html

"United States Navy and Marine Corps fighters 1918-1962 " (Harleyford).
"United States Navy aircraft since 1911" (Putnam).
"The Grumman F4F-3 Wildcat" ( F L Greene).
As far as I know this is as accurate as possible. This includes Martlets / Wildcats under British and Commonwealth contracts ie. Martlet I to Wildcat VI.
Regards
Nick
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Old 20th July 2017, 11:42
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

Good morning Nick,

thanks for the figures.

Would you say that all of the FM-1's 10 kills were scored against the Japanese ?

Michael
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Old 20th July 2017, 17:27
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

Hi Michael. Both FM-1s and FM-2s were in the anti-submarine groups on CVEs in the ATLANTIC 1943-45; so few air claims. The PACIFIC escort and A/S air groups only had FM-2s so it's almost certain that all their victories were Japanese. The squadrons were VCs ( Composite with TBMs) and in the Atlantic they had A/S camouflage schemes 1 and 2.
In the ATLANTIC the A/S escort carriers March-Dec. 1943 were Bogue, Croatan, Santee, Core, Card and Block Island.
From Jan. - Oct. 1944 they were Block Is., Bogue, Guadalcanal, Croatan, Solomons, Wake Is., Card, Tripoli and Mission Bay.
From March - May 1945 they were Mission Bay, Core, Bogue and Croatan; the gap in operations was because the Biscay U-boat ports had been captured after D-Day.
This is Steve Sherman's victory list consolidated; this is only PACIFIC so presumably doesn't include the Atlantic FM-1 claims.
I doubt the exact figures will ever be known.
Nick
http://acepilots.com/planes/air_wins.html
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Old 21st July 2017, 11:11
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

Good morning Nick,

the Robert Allen list indicates:
  • 986 PTO kills for the F4F/FM-1, no CBI kills
  • 26 MTO kills for the F4F/FM-1, no ETO kills
  • 422 PTO kills for the FM-2, no CBI/ETO/MTO kills
Where do you think do the 10 presumed FM-1 kills fit in ?

I wish you a good weekend,

Michael
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Old 21st July 2017, 11:44
twocee twocee is offline
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

The FM-1 entered squadron service in January 1943 and operated interchangeably with the F4F-4 within those squadrons. I don't really see the point in trying to identify FM-1 claims separately.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 03:38
R Leonard R Leonard is offline
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

F4F Results USN (All) from Olynyk, credits = 522
FM-2 Results USN (All) from Olynyk, credits = 428

F4F Results USN (VF & VTB only) from NACSWW2, credits = 449
F4F Results USN (other than VF & VTB) from Olynyk, credits = 40

F4F USMC Results (VF & VTB only) from NACSWW2, credits = 457

FM-2 Results USN (VF & VTB only) from NACSWW2, credits = 422
FM-2 Results USN (other than VF & VTB) from Olynyk, credits = 12

Martlets of various stripes from various sources, my count, credits = 54

NACSWW2 = Naval Aviation Combat Statistics-World War2, a BuAer publication, circa 1946

I am unaware of any credits which could be specifically laid to FM-1s. There were some small number of them in combat areas in the Pacific, but I don’t think they had any exposures to or encounters with enemy aircraft. The USN specifically identifies credits to FMs. Since the FM-1 was essentially an F4F-4 clone (although only the first 10 produced had six guns, the rest had four), as I interpret the USN documentation, the FM-2 was considered by the practitioners sufficiently different from the Grumman F4F-x/Eastern FM-1 types to be counted separately.
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