Bf 109 V25

[Falcon]

Hello Messerschmitt friends,


is there anyone who got original documents about the Bf 109 V25 for verification of the printed after war books?


- The registration D-IVKC in combination with the notice Bf 109 V25 on a document, as example.
Or the WNr. 1930 / 5605 together with the registration or the V25.

- Documents that give informations about the tests with the V25. Currently is known, that it was possible used to test the "Ringölkühler".


- Dates for the test period. I guess, it was at the beginning of the Bf 109 F development.
(Possible January - April 1939, because the on the photo visible Me 209 V2 in the background was lost on 04.04.1939)


- This photo in better and sharp quality.
https://me109.info/display.php?a=e&l=en&fid=2991


The background... A good friend is drawing a non profit colour profile, also for my website. We try to get all informations to draw it so exactly as possible. Currently are only two photos known, nearly made from the same position on the same day. :-(


All additional informations are welcome. Thanks for your help.


David / Falcon

[Falcon]

OK, no additional informations for this special topic. :-(


Here is the current final version of the profile.


https://me109.info/display.php?a=e&l=en&fid=16924

[Stig Jarlevik]

No answer David, but I feel it is unlikely the WNr was 5605.

I think that number stems from someone reading the 1993 book where Prien/Rodeike lists three F-protypes V21, V23-V24 as WNr 5602, 5603 and 5604, thus making the V25 5605.

I have no idea why Prien/Rodeike believed these Versuchs aircraft were taken from Messerschmitt's first F-production batch. Mind you they never mention the V25 and somebody else made that conclusion.

Radinger/Schick in 1997 in their final appendix states what they feel to be the correct WNr for all the early versions , unfortunately quoting the same WNr for both the V25 and V26, the latter probably WNr 1931.

So based on these two books and that it is highly unlikely that the production batch beginning with 5601 had already begun in 1939 I would say WNr 1930 is much more believable

Cheers
Stig

[Rottler]

Hello Stig,

according to Radinger/Schick "Bf 109 A bis 109 E" pages 85-87 the Bf 109 V26 was the Bf 109 E-3 WNr. 1361 CA+NK, used as a test aircraft/Erprobungsträger.
In the book "Bf 109 A bis 109 E" are listed the test aircraft
V 21 WNr. 1770 D-IFKQ
V 22 WNr. 1800 D-IRRQ, conversion to F-1
V 23 WNr. 1801 D-ISHN, test aircraft for F version
V 24 WNr. 1929 D-ITDH.
In the following book "Bf 109 F bis 109 K" page 8 these entries are corrected:
V 21 WNr. 5602 D-IFKQ, later CE+BN
V 22 WNr. 1800 D-IRRQ, later CE+BO
V 23 WNr. 5603 CE+BP
V 24 WNr. 5604 VK+AB.

According to Peter Schmoll "Die Messerschmitt-Werke im Zweiten Weltkrieg" the WNr. 5605 was one of 16 Bf 109 F-0 (5605-5611 VK+AC – VK+AI, 5612-5620 PH+IA – PH+II).

Regards
Leo

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Leo

I only looked at page 136 of Radinger/Schick's book Bf 109 A-E from 1997.
I don't have their later? book about F - K, but it is interesting they now turn the prototypes back to what Prien/Rodeike already said in 1993.

How do they explain the peculiar phenomena that they say the V25 had a BAL date of 4 March 1939 (A-E book) when their V21, V23, V24 had not yet been built? (F-K book). Or do they subscribe to the theory that D-ICVK was not the V25 at all? Or did Messerschmitt begin a really slow production line where 5601 - 5605 took close to two years to build?

More confusing than I thought....

Cheers
Stig

[Steve Coates]

V23 = W.Nr. 1801
V24 = W.Nr. 1929

According to what I'd best describe as a V-Muster sheet issued with LP18. I don't have RL3 reference to hand I'm afraid.

V15 is 1773 according to same document.

[Rasmussen]

from flight logs...

without V-designation:
CE+BG, W.Nr.1801 (flight log Baur)
CE+BO, W.Nr.5602 (flight log Kühnle + Baur)
CE+BP, W.Nr.5603 (flight log Baur + Schmid + Beauvais)
VK+AB, W.Nr.5604 /flight log Baur + Schmid)
D-IVKC, W.Nr.1930 (flight log Wurster)

with V-designation:
D-IRRQ, W.Nr.1800 (flight log Beauvais) called V 22
CE+BG, W.Nr.1801 (flight log Schmid) called V 23
CE+BP, W.Nr.5603 (flight log Kühnle) called V 23
D-ITDH, W.Nr. not mentioned (flight log Beauvais) called V 24
VK+AB, W.Nr.5604 (flight log Beauvais + Kühnle) called V 24

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Rasmussen

Can someone please state exactly when the first production Bf 109 F 5601 - 5605 rolled off the production line? Are there any dates in your Flugbücher Rasmussen?

This is becoming very interesting....

Cheers
Stig

[Merlin]

The secret behind is, that the V-numbers 20 to 26 were used twice due to unknown reasons.
The first batch was based on Bf 109E and C airframes and the second batch on Bf 109F airframes.
My table below presents their WNr., registrations and first appearance in documents:

E V20 1779 D-ICZH 10.38
C V21 1770 D-IFKQ KB+II 08.39
E V22 1800 D-IRRQ 01.39
E V23 1801 D-ISHN CE+BG 02.39
E V24 1929 D-ITDH CE+BH 03.39
E V25 1930 D-IVKC NB+NG 09.39
E V26 1361 CA+NK 07.40

F V21 5601 CE+BN 07.40
F V22 5602 CE+BO 01.40
F V23 5603 CE+BP 02.40
F V24 5604 VK+AB 07.40
F V25 nothing found
F V26 5605 VK+AC 04.40

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Gerhard

A highly appreciated input. Unusual but in the end a rational explanation to this mystery.

I hope David is pleased as well!

Thanks again Gerhard!!

Cheers
Stig