Black 9 and 13 2JG3 Colombert profile and Tatzelwurm colour queries ?

[BOBC]

Hi,
I have maybe two profiles for the same aircraft differing on mottle style, tatzelwurm colour and spinner colours, also placement of 87 octane triangle, certainly the lower is as in the BW pic, but is the upper supposed to be this aircraft and if not which pic is it referring to as I have no other black 9 in my JG3 photo collection so far.
source of upper is:-
https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/...ct-1940-0A.jpg



Another anomaly is black 13 where Classic Pub's series has red tatz with red spiral whilst the renowned Richard Caruana has green with yellow spiral. Which one is correct ? see below.



Having seen red white yellow and green tatzelwurms what is the staffel colouring/allocation for them ?

Also 2 staffel are red or black filled numbers but does the Tatzelwurm colour follow the colour fill of such ?

1JG3:-
White 6 Schnabel 1JG3 is white tazel in profiles.

2JG3:-
Black 11 2JG3 2JG3 (no profile) looks red or green.
Red 1 2JG3 white or yellow Tatzelwurm (video extract). (not the dark colour tatzel)
Red 3 2JG3 red Tatzel (profile)
Red 4 2JG3 red tatzel. (profile)
Black 6 2JG3 Ehlers or Keller(another discussion)Red orGreen tatz.(profiles)
Black 9 2JG3 red or maybe green (discussion here)
Black 13 2JG3 (18aug40) straw over a/c, Red or Green (discussion here)
Black 8 2JG3 (29aug40) Red Tatzel. (profile)
Red 10 2JG3 force landed France Red or Green Tatzelwurm (photo)

3JG3:-
Yellow 4 3JG3 Rau 31aug40 Yellow Tatz. (profile)
Yellow 9 3JG3 Lutzow Yellow or white tatz.(pic)
Yellow 2 3JG3 Yellow or white tatz.(pic)
Yellow 7 3JG3 Grabow 5sep40 White (profile) tatz.
Yellow 9 3JG3 (same pic as Yell 2) appears yellow tatz (but maybe white)

so when is green or red used and when is yellow or white used ?

Cheers
BOBC

[John Vasco]

If 'Black 13' is that of Oblt. Helmut Teidmann, Staka of 2./JG3, down on 18th August 1940, then the intelligence report stated: "...Markings: lettering black with white edging. Shield: red dragon with yellow tongue. Top of rudder tips and tips of tailplane and wings bright yellow. Tip of spinner red with white concentric circles..."

[Chris Goss]

Jochen Prien explains the wurm colours in his books on JG 3 & German fighters. Trouble with profiles over the years is a number of artists got things wrong as John has indicated. Jochen states that the tips of the spinner and wurm accorded to the staffel colours of white, red and yellow with a green Stab I

[BOBC]

Hi John and Chris,
Thanks for the info, so red Tatzels for 2 staffel and not the green ones seen in profiles of black 9 and black 13. I am surprised though that Richard Caruana got his profile wrong, if indeed it is supposed to be the aircraft in the photo I put with them. Even if it isnt its still a 2 Staffel machine with a Stab colour tatzelwurm.


Article extract below says 2 Staffel black, however the video extract (see asisbiz site) which we often see in documentaries shows though a red 1 outlined white (certainly not black) so not all 2 Staffel were black.
I also see in photo captions red 3 4 10 and 11, all from Asisbiz website, looking at the photos the red is very dark and could be black, I need to get the colour right though, any chance please of taking a look at them for me and giving me your opinion on red or black ?


red 1 is here:-
https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/...C-film-01.html


red 3 here:-
https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/...t-1940-01.html


red 4 no photo just a profile. no doubt based on photo or crash report ?
Request profile author reveal source)
https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/...e-1940-0A.html


red 10 is here and other pics red 10 either side (use previous next buttons)
https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/...e-1940-02.html



red 11 (which I forgot to list), caption says red but surely thats black ?) is here:-
https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/...g-1940-01.html


I have found an article at this link and here is the text :-
https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.ph...ions-requested
Hello Jim

This is some info taken from the book Jagdgeschwader 3 Udet� in World War II Stab and I./JG3 in Action with Messerschmitt Bf109.
The Gruppes of JG3 with Tatzelwurm was the first Gruppe I./JG3), The Stab./JG3 also use Tatzelwurms during the Battle of Britain period.
You can recognize the Staffels in the following way: You need to look at both the spinners and the colour of the tatzelwurm:
Stab./JG3 light green spinner tip, rest of the spinner dark green. Light green Tatzelwurm.
1st Staffel JG3. White spinner tip, rest of the spinner cut in 4 quarters, 2 white and 2 dark green. white Tatzelwurm
2nd Staffel: red spinner tip, rest of the spinner cut in 4 quarters, 2 white and 2 dark green. Red Tatzelwurm
3rd Staffel: Yellow spinner tip, rest of the spinner cut in 4 quarters, 2 white and 2 dark green. Yellow Tatzelwurm.

Numbering of the aircraft is in the same colour as the colour of the tatzelwurm for 1st and 3d Staffel. The Stab which used white markings like the 1st Staffel. Planes of the Second Staffel had Black markings instead of red.
Another note on the Stab. markings of JG3: The black and white of the <<< of the Gruppe komandeur of JG3 Lutzow were the same size (From around mid-May). which means wider whiter bands than normal. From about mid September 1940 this style was adapted by all stab. planes (like here on a model I made some time ago, the Bf109F-2 of Lt. Detlev Rohwer, east front June 1941, wn:6601.)

Planes of Stab. and I./JG3 got yellow wing tips in mid August 1940, on both the up as underside of the wing the yellow ran from the wingtip till the outer side of the slat.
At the end of august the entire rudder and the tips of the tail wings were painted yellow.
Around that time ( a bit later though) the engine cowlings of the plane were painted yellow, like you said the tatzelwurms were masked off with a rectangular mask leaving previous camouflage visible ( take a look at the picture) On the Emils it appears that in front of the front window was painted yellow too(So the entire cover of the engine and machinegun covers were painted yellow)

If you need more info please send me an email at thijslepstra at hotmail dot com

Cheers BOBC

[Milos Gazdic]

Very interesting discussion & some interesting information here.

Dear BOBC please do not get confused by the "darkness" of the black in the image showing "Red 11" in your last post.
It is clearly an image that was either developed more contrasty or scanned with more contrast so numeral seems way darker than let's say numeral in photo showing Red 10, while the look in comparison to the cross still looks to be the same tone.