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  #41  
Old 30th December 2018, 10:07
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Leo

Obviously,if Bolz is credited with a Spit instead of a B-17,Eder is the only responsable for the fall of the B-17.

My preference is the version of Mr.Prien (most recent among others),but it interest me to know the version of Mr.Mombeek in his study on the JG2 (spit or B-17).....also if someone has the information?

Best Regards
Michel
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  #42  
Old 30th December 2018, 10:36
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Michel

Mombeek in his history of JG 2 lists both Bolz and Eder with a B-17 on 28 March 1943 and it appears that Mathews (Johannes) does as well.

Horrido!

Leo
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  #43  
Old 30th December 2018, 12:44
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Nick

Thank you for your Eder scrutiny, and it's pleasing to hear that his claims are reasonably good. Regarding the P-38, as I say everybody else's are on the mikrofilms Eder's are not, therefore either it was not confirmed, or never was, trouble is that sometimes we are judging the honesty of pilots using the wrong information. As Eder's claims surjest that he is basically honest, but not following protocol to the letter, i.e probably not actually witnessing a crash, then in my opinion his jet claims were ALL post 3rd December 1944, well those that were worthy of submitting the paperwork.


Am currently looking into Hermann Graf, initially contrary to common belief amongst us his claim pattern doesn't seem too bad, he has always been associated with Ernst Suss, Heinrich Fullgrabe and Alfred Grislawski, yet it appears that is not the case, if he was working something with others it would be Leopold Steinbatz and Hermann Wolf, but as I say though he claimed so many in a short span of time, they are actually no where near as spectacular as Nowotny's or Lang's, assuming of course that not the whole staffel was working something together, and actually I think not. Actually I believe Graf was a shy man so would seem unlikely, but you can never tell.


Kind Regards


Johannes
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  #44  
Old 30th December 2018, 12:48
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Hi Nick

Thank you for your Eder scrutiny, and it's pleasing to hear that his claims are reasonably good. Regarding the P-38, as I say everybody else's are on the mikrofilms Eder's are not, therefore either it was not confirmed, or never was, trouble is that sometimes we are judging the honesty of pilots using the wrong information. As Eder's claims surjest that he is basically honest, but not following protocol to the letter, i.e probably not actually witnessing a crash, then in my opinion his jet claims were ALL post 3rd December 1944, well those that were worthy of submitting the paperwork.


Am currently looking into Hermann Graf, initially contrary to common belief amongst us his claim pattern doesn't seem too bad, he has always been associated with Ernst Suss, Heinrich Fullgrabe and Alfred Grislawski, yet it appears that is not the case, if he was working something with others it would be Leopold Steinbatz and Hermann Wolf, but as I say though he claimed so many in a short span of time, they are actually no where near as spectacular as Nowotny's or Lang's, assuming of course that not the whole staffel was working something together, and actually I think not. Actually I believe Graf was a shy man so would seem unlikely, but you can never tell.


Kind Regards


Johannes
Graf? Well then, here's some help with him:


Hermann Graf

7th claim
24.9.41/1210
DB-3A
near Balakliya
52 DBAD

8th claim
27.9.41/1422
DB-3F
50km W of Kharkov
This one is said to have been one of 8 BAP's losses, gunner was Starshina Vasiliy Kurayev, only one other survivor

13th and 14th claims
14.10.41/1610 and 1613
2 x “I-26s”
10-15km N of Walki
Day's fighter losses include 164 IAP, Ml.Lt. Aleksandr Nikolaevich Feoktistov KIA. 186 IAP lost Georgy Afanasyevich Chernyshev KIA (many claims throughout the day)

15th and 16th claims
24.10.41/1250 and 1252
2 x “I-61s”
Boisovka
Very likely 5/32 IAP/VVS-ChF. Fifteen losses in the last week of October

17th claim
25.10.41/1521
“I-61”
Aibary
Probably St.Lt. Mikhail Avdeyev of 5/32 IAP/VVS ChF, returned to base, damaged

18th claim
27.10.41/1538
“I-61”
10km S of Juschno (Yushno)
Very likely 5/32 IAP/VVS-ChF. Fifteen losses in the last week of October
(remaining claims for October 41 follow the same pattern….)

27th claim
23.11.41/1336
IL-2 Sturmovik
S of Rostov
4 ShAP, details pending

28th claim
29.11.41/1021
I-16 "Rata"
10km NNE of Rostov
Day's fighter losses near Rostov include 271 IAP, Lt. Mikhail Ivanovich Trushin KIA


29th claim
29.11.41/1027
DB-3
ENE of Rostov
Could this have been the crew from 51 DBAP lost to fighters this date near Zagorsk? Crew of St.Lt. Sergey Bykov and crew all KIA. 81 DBAP lost crew of Ml.Lt. Sydor Semenovich Molochkov

32nd claim
6.12.41/1252
IL-2 Sturmovik
E of Lysogorskaya
4 ShAP details pending

38th and 39th claims
27.12.41/1201 and 1205
2 x I-16 “Ratas”
Taganrog – Azov
88 IAP, overclaiming - no losses

43rd and 44th claims
7.1.42/1450 and 1455
2 x I-16 “Ratas”
Ssansnoje/Nowaja-Slobodka
VVS Southwestern Front. Day's fighter losses include Sergei Vasilyevich Demenkov WIA. 438 IAP lost Ml.Lt. Nikita Andriyanovich Taranov KIA

47th claim
3.2.42/0935
Su-2
Nuwo
135 BBAP or 13 GBAP. Details pending

50th claim
23.3.42/1726
Su-2
E of Kotowka
135 BBAP or 13 GBAP. Details pending

51st claim
25.3.42/0625
Yak-1 ("I-180")
E of Staraya Saltow
Possibly the enagagement in which 296 IAP lost Lt. Mikhail Stepanovich Sedov KIA

52nd claim
27.3.42/1011
Yak-1 (I-26)
15km E of Volzhansk
Possibly St.Lt. Ivan Fedorov of 487 IAP KIA

58th claim
“I-61”
15km W of Burluk
Was this Lt. Petr Fedorovich Yakimov of 273 IAP? WIA and DOW in hospital on 1.4.42

61st, 62nd and 63rd claims
29.4.42/1210-1315
3 x Yak-1s
flight between Grammatikovo and Zuerichtal, Kerch Peninsula
247 IAP, details pending

65th claim
30.4.42/1405
I-16 "Rata"
Kertsch
36 IAP. Mayor Kartuzov WIA (shrapnel in leg)

79th – 85th claims
8.5.42
Day's losses in aerial combat include St.Serzhanti Vladimir Nikolaevich Belkov and Vladimir Grigorievich Svetovostokov of 269 IAP both KIA and Sergey Petrovich Bubyrev of 12 IAP KIA
36 IAP lost I-16 of Leytenant Martynov bellylanded and Kapitan Petr Grigorievich Safronenko and Lt. Kravchennko both baled out, 133 IAP lost Ml.Lt. Vasily Semyonovich Badanin KIA

88th and 89th claims
11.5.42/1745 and 1746
2 x I-16 "Rata" or MiG-1
Kerch Peninsula
VVS Crimean Front. 45 IAP lost St.Lt. Vasily Pavlovich Chernii (AE CO) KIA this date. One of these claims may pertain to him

91st – 96th claims
13.5.42
I-16 “Ratas”
Rogani sector
Graf's victims may include Lt. Arseniy Stepanov of 929 IAP, KIA this area

99th and 100th claims
14.5.42
Kharkov/Rogani area
13 GBAP. One known loss (slight overclaiming), details pending

105th claim
15.5.42
Fighter?
Kharkov/Rogani area
282 IAP lost St.Serzhant Leonid Sergeyevich Frolov KIA this date

106th claim
20.5.42/1737
Pe-3
Kharkov area
99 BAP/4 RAG?
Note that 8 GBAP lost crew of Lt. Ivan Arkadievich Shilov this date

112th claim
3.8.42/1835
IL-2 Sturmovik
Caucasus (PQ 00667) @ 400m
7 GShAP, 4 VA

116th and 117th claims
14.8.42/1014 and 1020
2 x I-16 "Ratas"
Kuban area
36 IAP. Kapitan Lev Nikolaevich Terpugov (AE CO) WIA and Lt. Viktor Nikolavich Zharkov KIA

118th – 120th claims
Yak-1, Hurricane and LaGG-3
5 VA's fighter losses this date include Lt. Alexey Savin of 482 IAP KIA in a LaGG-3. 45 IAP lost Ivan Lukich Svinarenko and Serzhant Nikolai Georgiyevich Zjuzins baled out POW (later freed)

123rd – 125th claims
17.8.42
3 x I-153 "Tchaikas"
Kuban sector
238 ShAD, 5 VA. Details pending

126th claim
18.8.42/1642
I-153 "Tchaika"
Krasnogorsk/Kuban area (PQ 85253) @ 600m
238 ShAD, 5 VA. Details pending

127th claim
18.8.42/1643
R-5
Krasnogorsk/Kuban area (PQ 85494) @ low altitude
763 LBAP. Details pending

129th claim
22.8.42/1403
Yak-1
Stalingrad sector (PQ 49154) @ 600m
Believe this was the engagement in which Lt. Aleksandr Stepanovich Bochkov of 287 IAP was KIA (several claims around this time)

131st claim
23.8.42/0727
Yak? ("I-180")
Stalingrad sector (PQ 49194) @ 2200m
8 VA. Day's Yak losses include Starshina Grigory Yakovlevich Bondarev of 12 IAP KIA

134th claim
24.8.42/0928
Yak-1 ("I-180")
Stalingrad sector (PQ 49421) @ 1200m
(There were at least 3 claims made during the engagement)
512 IAP. Slight overclaiming, only two aircraft lost with their pilots. Includes Politruk Grigoriy Kuznetsov KIA

136th and 137th claims
25.8.42/1151 and 1727 (is one of these timings in error?)
2 x LaGG-3s
5km E of Stalingrad
572 IAP, 864 IAP or 9 GIAP. 9 GIAP definitely lost Lt. Mikhail Mikhailovich Sarkin KIA this date

138th claim
29.8.42/1422
LaGG-3
Stalingrad area (PQ 59173) @ 1800m
8 VA. Day's fighter losses include St.Serzhant Ivan Ivanovich Snetkov of 867 IAP KIA

2.9.42/0912 and 1711
P-40 Kittyhawks
Stalingrad sector
731 IAP. Two P-40s lost this date, pilot details pending. There were 6 claims in total for P-40s over the Stalingrad

142nd claim
2.9.42/0915
IL-2 Sturmovik
Stalingrad sector (PQ 49441) @ low altitude
8 VA. 2 IL-2s lost this date. One was from 211 ShAP, Serzhant Arkady Vasilyevich Sokolov KIA over the target (may have been attributed to Flak)

143rd claim
2.9.42/1332
Pe-8 or DB-7
Stalingrad sector (PQ 59143) @ 7000m
Could this at all have been an aircraft of 840 APDD? Navigator Alexei Mikhailovich Fomin KIA this date

146th – 149th claims
3.9.42
Several fighters
Stalingrad
4 Yak-1s and 3 Yak-7Bs lost this date. Anatoly Nikolayevich Alexandrov of 867 IAP was certainly KIA

150th claim
4.9.42/1012
Yak-1
Stalingrad (PQ 49241) @ 2000m
8 VA, 16 VA (220 and 283 IADs) or 102 IAD/PVO. 8 VA lost one Yak-1 and one LaGG-3 this date whilst 16 VA lost 17 Yak-1s.
Known to me are: 273 IAP lost Serzhants Mikhail Semyonovich Budnikov, Nikolai Lavrentevich Bessonov and Aleksandr Stepanovich Chetvertukhin all KIA. 43 IAP lost Nikita Timofeevich Syusyukalov also KIA. 581 IAP lost St. Serzhant Alexander Ilyich Fedorinin KIA

151st claim
5.9.42/1658
I-153 "Tchaika"
Stalingrad sector (PQ 40881) @ low altitude
629 IAP. Details pending

152nd claim
6.9.42/1321
IL-2 Sturmovik
Stalingrad sector (PQ 49163) @ 400m
8 VA (6 IL-2s lost this date, includes Aleksandr Mikhailovich Smetanin of 694 ShAP and Serzhant Aleksandr Maximovich Shashin of 503 ShAP both KIA) or 16 VA (10 IL-2s lost this date)

8.9.42/1128 and 1135
2 x La-5s
Stalingrad sector
27 IAP, 287 IAD. Legitimate victories: two losses: Starshiy Leytenant Yevgeniy Bykob and Starshiy Serzhant Anatoliy Yegoshin both MIA

159th and 160th claims
9.9.42/1321, and 1324
3 x La-5s
Stalingrad sector
3 GIAP, 15 IAP or 27 IAP, 287 IAD, 8 VA. Very likely a misidentification or overclaiming, no La-5s lost this date

163rd claim
11.9.42/1558
Pe-2
Know to have come from 270 BAD. Their 284 BAP lost two Pe-2s this day. Crew details pending

164th claim
11.9.42/1609
P-40 Kittyhawk
731 IAP, actually made it home (I need to chase this one up…)

167th and 168th claims
14.9.42/0800 and 0804
2 x I-16 "Rata"
Stalingrad sector
629 IAP, includes Starshiy Politruk Teplitskiy MIA

169th claim
14.9.42/0809
Yak-1
Stalingrad sector (PQ 49411) @ 1000m
8 VA or 16 VA (220 and 283 IAD) or 102 IAD/PVO. Losses include Ml.Lt. Ivan Stepanenko of 4 IAP, baled out

170th claim
15.9.42/0635
I-16 "Rata"
Stalingrad sector (PQ 49423) @ 400m
629 IAP, St.Lt. Lysenko bellylanded safely

174th claim
16.9.42/0739
P-40 Kittyhawk
Stalingrad sector (PQ 40882) @ 3500m
731 IAP, Starshina Vasiliy Prokhorov KIA

178th and 179th claims
18.9.42/1157 and 1159
2 x LaGG-3s
Stalingrad sector
If correctly identified: 572 IAP, 864 IAP or 9 GIAP. However, much more likely misidentified Yaks. 8 VA (no known Yak losses this date) or 16 VA (18 Yak-1s and 2 Yak-7Bs lost this date)

180th claim
18.9.42/1212
IL-2 Sturmovik
Stalingrad sector (PQ 49134)
228 ShAD or 291 ShAD. Losses include a whole formation of 6 IL-2s from 245 ShAP. Losses in total: 8 VA (2 IL-2s lost this date) and 16 VA (12 IL-2s lost this date including that of Mayor Konstantin Vasilyevich Yarovoi and St.Serzhant Vasily Ivanovich Tuzukov, 688 ShAP). 954 ShAP (16 VA) lost Ml.Lt. Tikhon Ivanovich Khudyakov KIA. Note: 688 ShAP losses are generally attributed to I/JG 53 and III/JG 3

181st claim
20.9.42/0820
LaGG-3
Stalingrad sector (PQ 40784) @ 4200m
If correctly identified: 572 IAP, 864 IAP or 9 GIAP. However, more likely a misidentified Yak. 8 VA (2 Yak-1s and 1 Yak-7B lost) or 16 VA (6 Yak-1s and 5 Yak-7Bs lost) or 102 IAD/PVO.

21.9.42
3 x Yak-1s
8 VA (2 Yak-7Bs lost) or 16 VA 3 Yak-1s and 1 Yak-7B lost) or 102 IAD/PVO, day's Yak-1 losses include Leytenant Sultan Akmet-Khan of 4 IAP, baled out. Same unit lost Leytenant Vladimir Prokofyevich Anashkin KIA

184th claim
21.9.42/1624
IL-2 Sturmovik
Stalingrad sector (PQ 49412) @ low altitude
8 VA (2 IL-2s lost) or 16 VA (no known losses). One of the two losses from 8 VA was Serzhant Vasily Nikolaevich Travin of 944 ShAP KIA

186th claim
22.9.42/1120
Stalingrad sector (PQ 49272) @ 1200m
629 IAP, Ml.Lt. Peshekhonov KIA

189th claim
23.9.42/1103
IL-2 Sturmovik
Stalingrad sector (PQ 49131 or 49201) @ 100m
8 VA (only 1 IL-2 lost this date) or 16 VA (no known IL-2 losses this date). Overclaiming? 503 ShAP lost Serzhant Vasili Mikhailovich Fedin KIA

198th and 199th claims
25.9.42/1441 and 1446
2 x La-5s
Stalingrad sector
287 IAD. 8 VA Only one known loss of a La-5 this date. Overclaiming?

200th claim
26.9.42/0853
I-153 "Tchaika"
Pitomnik airfield (PQ 49294) @ 800m
(Hermann Wolf claimed as well)
3 AE, 629 IAP (102 IAD-PVO). Pilots Pavlov, Sergeev and Ovchinnikov in I-153s plus Mal’chenko and V. Smirov in I-16s. Overclaiming, no losses

201st and 202nd claims
26.9.42/1642 and 1658
LaGG-3 and Yak-1
Stalingrad sector
Do these pertain to the only Yak-7B lost by 16 VA this date? (No known losses by 8 VA)

205th and 206th claims
6.9.43/1050 and 1108
2 x B-17 Flying Fortresses
Stuttgart – Southern edge of the Black Forest
92nd BG, 7 losses including B-17F-80-BO 42-30000 of 327th BS (definitely over Germany) and B-17F-80-BO 42-30010 of 407th BS (will eventually update my database, then re-post)

209th claim
6.3.44/1448
B-24H Liberator HSS
W of Berlin
42-54457 of 453rd BG. 1/Lt. Elmer Crockett and crew made it back to the channel then ditched. 5 survivors, 1 man KIA, 4 men MIA (already damaged by Flak)

211th and 212th claims
29.3.44
2 x P-51B-5 Mustang
N of Hannover – Schwarmstedt area
4th FG, most likely attributable loss is 43-6759/WD-P of 335th FS, Lt. William E Newell baled out and POW

Last edited by Nick Hector; 31st December 2018 at 14:08.
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  #45  
Old 31st December 2018, 12:56
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Nick

I take it that you are not sure if you have ALL the Sowiet losses?
Just by looking at who claimed the same sortie as Graf I would say there are at least four pilots he is likely to have colluded with Leopold Steinbatz, then latter on Friedrich Bruckmann, Johann Kalb and Hermann Wolf, though guess we should call them innocent until you can confirm that you have details of all the Sowiet losses. By your scrutiny it would appear that any overclaiming worsened with Hermann Wolf.
Regarding his claims in the West can only be sure of the details of four of them, and I do not think he would have had the opportunity to overclaim, truly he had difficulty scoring in the West anyway, looking at it I would say that Grislawski was the better man anyway.


Attached are details of those who claimed the same time as Graf, should be that they were with him. Any claims where he is the only claimer I have marked as so(nur) in theory these should be legitimate as nothing given as an incentive to false-witness.AA.Graf.Hermann@~fraudulent claims.xls


Graf seemed a shy man, you would think he wouldn't want the fame his claiming caused. The poor man tried to sale his decorations to pay for treatment of his Parkinson disease, which is a horrible way to die.


Please let us know how much of the Sowiet losses you hold.


Kind Regards


Johannes
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  #46  
Old 31st December 2018, 14:07
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Johannes,

I have put in as much detail as I know for each claim. Where I am uncertain, I have omitted to include the claim, hence the gap between his 106th and 112th claims for example. My database is like a mosaic that I am trying to fill in as best I can
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  #47  
Old 31st December 2018, 16:36
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Nick


Many thanks for the reply

Same with myself and claims, the only period when the microfilms include ALL claims is October 1943 until September 1944 with the exception of SG claims, basically the daily microfilm entries for October 1944 do not have JG5's data, then in December 1944 I believe it's fragmentary, however I have many Leistungsbucher, abschusseliste and flugbucher which enables me to say when the entries stop/start for any particular Geschwader, like JG7's ends 3rd December 1944 for example.


Thing is that without 99-100% list it's really difficult to state overclaiming with certainty, it's a harsh accusation that we can't say is 100% certain about.


I have 66,650 confirmed claims details, but suspect the true number of claims was anything from 70,000 to 80,000, rather less than we have been led to believe.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #48  
Old 1st January 2019, 00:03
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Your words:

Thing is that without 99-100% list it's really difficult to state overclaiming with certainty, it's a harsh accusation that we can't say is 100% certain about.



But making statements about pilots' honesty with no evidence whatsoever beyond "my friend told me so" is perfectly fine....?

Docking (for example) Hans Beisswenger's tally from 152 victories (officially accredited by his Government and his Air Force) down to 150 because as a post-war historian you personally don't think balloons count is also perfectly fine....?



I have only used the term "overclaiming" when I am certain no other losses took place. Often it is because somebody has checked ahead of me. If you read my posts carefully, I state the day's known losses or the engagement's known losses and I question myself a lot: "Could this have been...." "Was this....." and so on.
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  #49  
Old 6th January 2019, 19:51
Karl Karl is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Dear all,

relating to my post#7 in this thread I have to correct myself: The Me262 with WNr. 110 778, which was shot down on 22.02.1945 was not piloted by Georg-Peter Eder, because the document "Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei den Fl.Verbänden" of Genst.Gen.Qu.6Abt.Nr.260/45 g.Kdos.(V), dated 13.3.45, states for the 100% loss of WNr. 170 778 (must be 110 778) on 22.02.45, that its pilot remained unhurt (name not mentioned).

Does anybody have a „Namentliche Verlustmeldung“ for Eder´s last mission, when he had to bail out of his Me262 and suffered injuries to leg and head (as written in Boehme´s JG7 Chronicle, see page 133)? What is the date for this event?

My collection of "Namentliche Verlustmeldungen " for JG7 is incomplete. For Hptm. Georg Eder, Staffelkapitän 9.JG7, I have only one for 11. January 1945, when he had an accident at Fliegerhorst Parchim due to clear ice (Glatteis) and was sent to the Luftwaffe hospital at Wismar.

KR Karl
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  #50  
Old 7th January 2019, 22:24
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Karl

Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be a clear answer to this incident. I have seen an argument put forth that this occurred on 17 February 1945 (or possibly on 16 February 1945) and that he was shot down by return fire from the USAAF four-engined bombers and forced to bale out of his aircraft during which he struck the fuselage or tail and suffered a broken left leg and head injuries. However, the QM6 reports for that day only mention as a possible candidate Me 262 A-1 (W.Nr. 501 199) of III./JG 7 which crashed at Brandenburg-Briest due to engine trouble and was damaged 65%. It appears this episode is one of those minor mysteries of the war.

Horrido!

Leo
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