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  #11  
Old 15th March 2008, 14:06
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Peter D Evans Peter D Evans is offline
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Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??

Afternoon all...

Ken Merrick, in his "Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1933-45, volume 2" says:

"The markings were applied to the rudder and consisted of a pair comprising a letter and number (or an 'S' if a Stab aircraft) with a single letter below the pair. The first letter identified the parent unit, the number identified the temporary Staffel that had been created within that unit, while the last letter was that of the individual aircraft letter within that formation."

Examples with images shown are:

Ju52/3m coded 4V+AT with T1 and J on the rudder
T = KG.z.b.V.172
1 = 1.Staffel
J = aircraft ID letter within IV./TG 3


Ju52 with D3 and F on the rudder
D = IV./KG.z.b.V 1
3 = 3.Staffel
F = aircraft letter

Merrick goes on to say:

"As always, there were oddities amongst the system. KG.z.b.V 1 was recorded using two letters in a white circle near the top of the fin, the first was the aircraft letter, the second was the code for the Gruppe. At other times, some units used the same system within their own structure as a quick recognition guide."

Still not found out what a white dot signified...

Cheers

Peter D Evans
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  #12  
Old 15th March 2008, 14:56
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CJE CJE is offline
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Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??

Peter,
To be honnest, I'm not quite sure it is a dot. I've blown the photograph up to the limit, the Ju 52 being in the background.
Photograph taken at Pleskau-Süd (Plskov) during the Demyansk airlift operations.

Chris

Last edited by CJE; 28th February 2009 at 08:03.
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  #13  
Old 15th March 2008, 15:07
cbe2009 cbe2009 is offline
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Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??

Thank you all for some most interesting reading!!!
It is always interesting to learn something new!
It seems to me that everytime something new is discovered, something new pops up!

Have any of you seen this triangular shape on a Ju 52 fuselage?

Best wishes

Christian
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Last edited by cbe2009; 19th September 2012 at 18:15.
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  #14  
Old 15th March 2008, 16:10
Seaplanes Seaplanes is offline
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Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??

IV./K.G.z.b.V. 1 was a part of K.G.z.b.V. "S" during the African supply operations December 1942 to May 1943, together with K.Gr.z.b.V. 600.
The unit codes and Tactical codes of IV./K.G.z.b.V. 1 were:
Stab unit code 1Z+ -F (this because the Savoia-Staffel carried the unit code 1Z+ -D). Tactical code D - S + individual letter.
13. Staffel unit code 1Z+ -X, tactical code D 1 + individual letter.
14. Staffel unit code 1Z+ -Y, tactical code D 2 + individual letter.
15. Staffel unit code 1Z+ -Z, tactical code D 3 + individual letter.
16. Staffel unit code 1Z+ -Q, tactical code D 4 + individual letter.
On April 6, 1943, the Ju 52 aircraft of 16./K.G.z.b.V. 1 were the following:
1Z+AQ W.Nr. 7297 (St.kz. DG+SK)
1Z+BQ W.Nr. 5342 (St.kz. VD+XB)
1Z+CQ W.Nr. 3203 (St.kz. PD+KM)
1Z+DQ W.Nr. 5118 (St.kz. BD+PP)
1Z+EQ W.Nr. 6038 (St.kz. GT+AD)
1Z+FQ W.Nr. 6322 (St.kz. TE+HY)
1Z+GQ W.Nr. 3301 (St.kz. KI+LJ)
1Z+HQ W.Nr. 7299 (St.kz. DG+SM)
1Z+IQ W.Nr. 6851 (St.kz. VK+AV)
1Z+JQ W.Nr. 5642 (St.kz. CR+NO)
1Z+LQ W.Nr. 5454 (St.kz. KJ+AH)
1Z+MQ W.Nr. 6682 (St.kz. CK+BA)
Unfortunately, the source did not give the tactical codes, but the individual aircraft letters of the unit code should match that of the tactical code. Please remember that units suffered heavy losses during these opetrations. Consequently, several aircraft could have carried the same unit and tactical codes over time.
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  #15  
Old 15th March 2008, 16:20
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Peter D Evans Peter D Evans is offline
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Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??

@ CJE - does look like a dot... still not found anything just yet...

@ Christian - we had a thread over on the LEMB about these triangle markings on Ju52's and Fw58's with the general consensus being that they were glider towing markings.

@ Seaplanes - thanks for the listing. There are also instances within the pages of the two volume "Transporter" by Martin Pegg [Classic, 2006] where the fuselage codes didn't match the three character rudder codes. The author says that the rudder markings superseded the fuselage codes. All very confusing!

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  #16  
Old 16th March 2008, 20:52
GrahamB GrahamB is offline
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Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??

Hi,

I think that the so called 'dot' on the Ju52 tail is actually the 'pig -in-a-star' emblem used by KGzbV 172 (later IV.TG 3) - white for 1/172 or 13/TG 3; red for 2/172 6r 14/TG 3; yellow for 3/712 or 15/TG 3 and finally blue for 4/172 or 16/TG 3. It was seen on the forward fuselage and/or tail units.

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GrahamB
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  #17  
Old 16th March 2008, 22:12
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Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??

...thanks for that Graham... can you, or any other member for that matter, point me towards any published images of this emblem please?

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  #18  
Old 17th March 2008, 03:35
GrahamB GrahamB is offline
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Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??

Hi Peter,

I've collated a few of these (about 20 photos) scattered throughout various books and I'll send a list as soon as I can. There are some in the Transporter volumes, the Airdoc book, Squadron Signal 'In Action', Luftwaffe im Focus 9, and those by Feist, Kossler, Nowarra, Jessen and Barry Rosch's book, , etc etc.

Cheers,

Graham
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  #19  
Old 17th March 2008, 09:23
GrahamB GrahamB is offline
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Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??

Hi Christien and Peter,

just to add - there were dots, or rather, discs on some Ju52s. There is a nice photo in Transporter Vol.1 page 92 of a KGzbV 1 aircraft with a pale (yellow or white?) disc. Some aircraft of III./KGzbV 1 carried the last two letters of their code (eg. 'EU', 'EV') on a pale disc so it is possible that the example mentioned above is also III Gruppe member, but possibly a staff flight or section leader?

Cheers

GrahamB
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  #20  
Old 19th March 2008, 18:52
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJE View Post
BTW, does anyone know which Ju 52 unit had a white dot as tactical code on the fin?
I believe it's not a dot, but rather a multi-point white star - but not necessarily the emblem Graham referred to.
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