359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?

[Nokose]

I read a thread about the 359 FG being involved in a dogfight with Russian Yak's or Lagg's on 03/18/45 (near Zackerick or N of Kustrin). It stated that 9 Russian fighters went down. Is this combat in the same area as JG52 was stationed. I know the book by Toliver and Constable of Erich Hartman has been probably added to by the authors but I was wondering if the incident described in the mustang chapter might have sparked this incident.

[yogybär]

No Gruppe of JG52 was based that far North to reach Küstrin. I&III were in the area of todays Czech Rep. / South Poland, and II/JG52 was in Hungary.

In this Hartmann-book is a report about an attack on VVS-bombers+escort in todays Czech Rep., which ended in a DF between USAAF & VVS-fighters. So, I don't think there is any connection.

How many AC did the US loose in this incident you describe? 9 losses on soviet side would be a lot!

[Nokose]

From what I gathered from the thread for the 23-24.06.06 the info came from the book "Mustangs and Unicorns" a history of the 359 FG and the 369FS was flying P-51's. It didn't mention US losses and didn't have a VVS IAP listed. The attack listed in "The Blond Knight of Germany" didn't say where it took place and most of it was probably made up by the authors to make a good story but some times a good fact is blown up to make a better story.

[marsyao]

Nokose, I don't think "The Blond Knight of Germany" is a well search book. Though I do not know the details about the clash you mentioned, but when the war was nearly end in Europe and the Front of Soviet and western Allies drawed closer and closer, clashed between VVS and Wester Allies airforce happened many times, the reasons was wrongly indentification, normally soviet and western allied pilots were not familiar with each other's aircrafts and the mark on aircrafts, according to the rule of thumb that time, any aircrafts you found in the air belonged to enemy until proved otherwise, quitely a few aircrafts from both sides were shot down and sadly result with loss of lives, Besides the clashed you mentioned, P-38s of USAAF 82 FG also clased with Yak-1 of VVS 866 IAP on Nov 7 1944

[SMF144]

A bit off topic, but luckily, when No.442 Squadron R.C.A.F. met up with the Russians near Berlin on April 16, 1945, no shots were exchanged, even though, one pilot from 442 did fly through the formation to have a closer look!

Stephen

[Nokose]

I wonder how many Yak's showed up on someone's score as a BF109 by mistake. As far as the book on Hartman maybe someone from Russia and the west that doesn't have a bias should get together to write his story. I've read the 82FG and the 866 IAP story before but wonder about the one with 359 FG from the VVS point now.

[kolya1]

Originally Posted by Nokose

I wonder how many Yak's showed up on someone's score as a BF109 by mistake. As far as the book on Hartman maybe someone from Russia and the west that doesn't have a bias should get together to write his story. I've read the 82FG and the 866 IAP story before but wonder about the one with 359 FG from the VVS point now.

Probably not so many, and the same for the other way around, even if such incidents happened, they were caused by "trigger-happy" pilots on both sides, but never as a result of orders, and therefore, the number of incidents were, AFAIK, limited.

[Nokose]

The "trigger happy" is probably right as becoming an "Ace" was a goal. Vlad Antipov's volume 2 "Dragons on Birds Wings" looks like it will have some more of these encounters when it comes out from the few teasor's in the description.

[Skyraider3D]

Knowing one of the 359th FG pilots who was involved in the incident, I feel "trigger happy" is a bit of a short-sighted way of looking at it.

Please take into account the confusion caused by:
- bombs raining down from above, scattering your flight
- not knowing Soviets are in the area, having captured a base you assume to be German
- having a mix of 109s and 190s blending into a mix of very similarly looking (shape and camouflage) Yaks and Lavochkins
- lack of red stars on the wings of the Soviet planes
- insufficient airplane recognition training, which didn't focus enough (at all?) on Soviet types
- the utter chaos and confusion of WW2 air combat in general

That may begin to sketch the picture.

Of course pilots were keen to score, but mix in the above ingredients and you should wonder why not more such incidents happened!

In any case Brian Cull is currently writing on the subject of friendly fire, so a more thorough research may become available in te next few years?

[kolya1]

Originally Posted by Skyraider3D

Knowing one of the 359th FG pilots who was involved in the incident, I feel "trigger happy" is a bit of a short-sighted way of looking at it.

Of course, by use the expression "trigger happy", I didn't mean any kind of intention, nor the idea that it was linked to the score.

Simply that such incidents happened when unknown planes were instantly attacked without sufficient ID, and that was not limited to incidents with the soviets but also between british and americans (Closterman in the last version of his "Big Show" describes at least three incidents between RAF and USAAF), or in other circumstances.

Most probably, such incidents contributed to give birth to the widespread rumors that persisted long after the war that Germany used captured allied airplanes (I can remember espisodes about "german B-17s" or "german P-47s") against their initial owners, while Germany used captured airplanes only for evaluation purposes.