RAF bombers lost to RAF bombers

[Mifletz]

Gunston states that at night jittery Lancaster and Halifaxes mistakenly shot down their fellows when they loomed too close.

Is it known how many RAF heavies were shot down by friendly fire from their fellow bombers? Approximately how many .303 rounds would be needed?

[Mifletz]

From Henric Edwards:

"I haven't seen any such figures, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I think it is safe to say that accidental firing on friendly bombers was fairly common, but how many of these incidents led to fatal crashes is more than I know.

As to how many .303 bullets it would take; it all depends on where they strike. A few shells between the engines would set the wing tanks on fire and the bomber would be doomed. This was a favourite tactic of many Nachtjagd pilots flying aircraft equipped with the upward firing 'Schrהge Musik' weapon system. Paradoxically, many of them believed that this method was more humane than firing directly at the fuselage since the bomber crew would have more time to escape. In fact, the opposite was true since the pilot often lost control of the bomber without any warning and the crew would have very little time to bail out.

If the bullets hit non-vital parts of the fuselage, more hits would be needed before the structural integrity was weakened to such an extent that it gave way and caused a failure serious enough to make further flight impossible. So it all depends on the situation."

[Mifletz]

On a B-17 there is nothing to prevent a side gunner from raking his own wing fuel tank or horizontal stabilizer tips. Did this ever happen?

[Jon]

I remember reading many years ago about a Halifax pilot who, had his jaw shot away by a rear gunner on a freindly aircraft. If i remember correctly he was removed from his seat and refused morphine in case it dulled his senses, another crewman flew the damaged bomber back to England, where the pilot took control and landed it before he passed away as it came to a stop...his job done in saving his crew. I am sure he recieved a VC for this ?

As for how many .303 rounds it took....i have fired many many .303 rounds in the past and although it is a small calibre i certainly would not want to be on the sharp end of one. 1,000 hitting nothing but aluminium will do nothing but, just one hitting something vital...like the pilot has the potential to bring it down.

[Graham Boak]

I believe you are thinking of Flt. Sgt.(?) Aaron, but the aircraft was a Stirling, on a raid to Italy.

[Jon]

Thanks Graham thats the chap, and yes i remember now it was a Stirling.

Also on the subject of the .303 being only a light weapon, remember 4 together in a tight group with the high rate of fire the Browning had could put a great deal of lead in the air in a very short burst. If a Nightfighter or friendly bomber for that matter was close in and got a volley from a rear turret it would certainly recieve some serious damage...again it all depends on what where and to who the damage happens.
The Luftwaffe Airgunners in 1940 during the Battle of Britain themselves put up a great fight and, that was with a hand held gimble mounted single MG15, with magazine feed and only 75 rounds per mag !! For those of you with the superb bible of a book "The Battle of Britain Then and Now" have a sacn through the RAF losses and look for RAF fighters either shot down by defensive or damaged and had to withdraw from combat due to defensive fire from this weapon....you will be surprised at the high number.