46 Sqn. Hurricanes in Norway.

[AndyMa]

Sorry, I'm still confused - not difficult!
Bengt's last sentence says:

Originally Posted by ATCCbengt

If "P2652" was in fact N2352/PO-T, this aircraft was left behind together with N2543/PO-K and L1812(code not known).

Later messages correct the serial to N2652.
But N2652 wasn't left in Norway either. It was lost with 229 Sqn over the UK on 30 September 1940.

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
Have you looked at my old posts about the CFF a/c and Hurricanes left behind ? May be some help.
In the mean time I looked through AB's L,N and P serials for 46 Sqn.
Here are those a/c.

L1750 - went to 151 Sqn, later became 2637M.
L1791 - went to 7 OTU.
L1792 - crashed in UK 29/3/39.
L1793 - lost Glorious 10/6/40.
L1794 - S/d 29/5/40, Narvik.
L1795 - landing acc UK, 24/2/39, became 1388M.
L1796 - went to 85 Sqn, so 3/1/45.
L1797 - landing acc UK, 19/6/39, DBR.
L1801 - Crash UK 18/4/40.
L1802 - went to 229 Sqn, NFT 17/5/40.
L1803 - went to 229 Sqn.
L1804 - lost Glorious 10/6/40.
L1805 - lost Glorious 10/6/40.
L1806 - lost Glorious 10/6/40.
L1807 - went to 312 Sqn, converted to DG628.
L1813 - went to 43 Sqn.
L1814 - "PO-C" - went to 6 OTU.
L1815 - lost Glorious 10/6/40.
L1816 - S/d Narvik, 29/5/40.
L1817 - went to 229 Sqn, lost in France 213 Sqn 17/5/40.
L1853 - lost Glorious 10/6/40.
L1854 - went to 229 Sqn.
L1857 - Crashed UK 6/3/40.
L1892 - went to 111 Sqn.
L1988 - lost Norway 29/5/40.
L2071 - went to 229 Sqn.
L2083 - went to 6 OTU.

N2480 - S/d UK 15/10/40.
N2497 - crashed UK 4/12/40.
N2543 - "PO-K" Undercarriage collapsed , abandoned on evac 2/6/40.
N2599 - went to 55 OTU.
N2652 - "PO-T", went to 229 Sqn.

P2632 - lost Glorious 8/6/40.
P2633 - lost Glorious 8/6/40.
P2685 - force landing UK 24/7/40.
P2965 - crashed UK, 17/12/40.
P2968 - went to 9 FTS.
P2994 - went to RN 16/1/41.
P3024 - UK 3/9/40.
P3026 - went to 145 Sqn.
P3030 - went to 601 Sqn.
P3031 - went to 607 Sqn.
P3052 - UK 49/40.
P3053 - UK 8/9/40.
P3060 - went to 73 Sqn.
P3062 - crashed UK 13/1/41.
P3063 - crashed UK 3/9/40.
P3064 - Mia UK, 3/9/40.
P3066 - crashed UK 3/9/40.
P3067 - S/d UK 9/40.
P3094 - crashed UK 11/9/40.
P3097 - went to 121 Sqn.
P3114 - went to 229 Sqn.
P3201 - S/d UK 8/9/40.
P3309 - went to 121 Sqn.
P3429 - crashed UK 30/11/40.
P3525 - crashed UK 11/9/40.
P3533 - lost in France 5/40, ex CFF, to 145(?) to 501 Sqn (?).
P3597 - went to 247 Sqn.
P3706 - went to RN 28/12/41.
P3756 - went to 607 Sqn converted became DG612.
P3816 - S/d UK 18/9/40
P5209 - went to 317 Sqn.

Delivered from July 40
R2684 - went to 121 Sqn.
R4074 - S/d UK 22/10/40.
R4190 - crashed UK 22/2/41.

Hope this is of some use .

Alex

[paulmcmillan]

Martin has '10 Lost In Glorious' Alex mentions '8' so

1) Martin's list match the 8 Alex has
2) What are the missing 2 ?

Thanks

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
OK I found 10. HMS Glorious.
L1793; L1804; L1805; L1806; L1815; L1853; L1961; L1980; P2632; P2633.

Lost due to e/a in Norway
L1794; L1816; L1988; N2543.
So the other four ?

Noted in the ORB for July that were in the ORB for June were -
P2965; P3026; P3031; P3062; P3063; P3067; P3597.

Which leaves -
L1895; P2652; P3023.
Total of 24 a/c that if I counted correctly were noted in the June ORB.

In regard to L1798; L1814; L1892 and P2652. These were mentioned in the May ORB but do not think that they are in the June ORB, except P2652.

[ATCCbengt]

Arghh! What a mess!

There is a photo of PO-T laying on its belly, left at Bardufoss. It seems to have all metal wings. There is also a photo of the scrap heap after the Germans had round up all wrecks, showing the "T" in the code. So it was definitely left behind. The serial number is the big question then. AIR 2/7262 which is full of reports from the air component of the North West Expeditionary Force has three damaged Hurricanes being shipped back to Britain in SS Cotswold.






Bengt

[ATCCbengt]

Ok. Have gone through the ORB again armed with the new info from AIR 2/7262 that 3 aircraft were returned to Britain after being damaged. Two of them are clear: L1814 and L1892. The third seems to be N2652 which ended up with 229 Squadron and was lost in September 1940. Ten aircraft was flown from Bardufoss to Glorious on 7 and 8 June. Three were shot down in air combat (L1794, L1816 and L1988) which leave only two Hurricanes left behind at Bardufoss. Not three as I have assumed before! Those were PO-T and PO-K. One seems to be N2543 and the other L1812. Which is which becomes speculation, but PO-T seems to be the one with latest mods. All metal wings, the later type of wind shield with the armored glass on the inside and the photo showing it laying on its belly beside the runway (it suffered under carriage collapse while landing). L1812s fate is not mentioned in the ORB and must then be PO-K, which was left standing in the splinter box. If so, then L1812 is PO-K and N2543 is PO-T. Any thoughts?



There are several typos and errors in the ORB. No L1805 landed at Skaanland or Bardufoss whenn the squadron arrived in Norway, but it left Norway on 8 June:








Bengt

[Alex Smart]

Thank you Bengt for these pages. Clears it up I think.

Only one oddity is Taken aboard on delivery was N2633.
BUT on leaving there is P2633.

Is this one and the same a/c ?
Or was this some typo error made at the time.

I note that on delivery
P2632 - S/L. CROSS
and
P2652 was F/O. MEE.
N2633 was P/O. McGREGOR.

And on evacuation
P2633 S/L. CROSS
and
P2632 F/O. MEE.

Could L1798 have been returned earlier ?

L1805 seems to have been lost on HMS Glorious, but was not (from the list) one of the eighteen ?

So were those that were S/d and wrecked in Norway replaced by other a/c ?
If so are their serial numbers known ?

[Martin Gleeson]

Bengt,

I posted the following last night but it disappeared or just did not go through properly.

Thank you very much for the extract from AIR 2/7262 which was new to me. The reference to the SS 'Cotswold' and the three Hurricanes being shipped back was the answer to my original question. If you have any other pages from the AIR 2/7262 document after May 29th could you please check if a fourth Hurricane was shipped back to the UK ?
Unfortunately I see now we are dealing with 19 serials, not 18. L1798/L1805 being the issue I think. The F.78 for L1798 has no mention of 46 Sqn. It records L1798 TOC by 4 M.U. (A.S.T.) on 19-3-1940 with the next entry being to 27 M.U. on 10-7-1940. Furthermore L1798 does not appear one in the detailed F.541 for 46 Sqn. during all of February to April 1940, but L1805 does.
This all needs more work !
Regarding typos on the May 9th ORB entries; 'P2652' should be N2652 and 'N2633' should be P2633.

Alex,

'N2633' was in a 'Blackout Block' of Hurricanes and so was never built. The F.78 for N2633 shows it with 46 Sqn. at this time and noted as 'Lost in HMS Glorious'.

Regards for now,

Martin.

[Alex Smart]

Hello Martin,
Thanks, I have just checked my AB books and yes NO a/c between N2631 to N2645.
That said there have been the odd one in other batches that seem to appear from time to time.
So it was P2633, agreed. Perhaps it was "PO-N" ?

As for -

L1798
No mention of 46 Sqn. Only 151/7OTU/5OTU/55 OTU. Became 3576M from 2 March, 1943.

L1812
213/22946.
NFT 29 May 1940.

L1814
46/6OTU/56OTU.
Became 3579M from 2 March, 1943.

L1892
46/111.
Hit by return fire from Ju88s and crash landed near Kenley 6 September 1940.

N2652
46/229.
Damaged by Bf109s over Edenbridge and abandoned Ightham Place, Kent 30 September 1940.

P2652
Ditched off Malta on Ferry Flight 22 February 1941.

All the best
Alex

[AndyMa]

It might also be worth noting that the two problem aircraft, which seem to be L1798 v L1805, were flown by P/O Bunker on both the outbound and inbound journeys - might be significant, might not....
Sadly he was lost in the sinking of HMS Glorious.
I am inclined to think that L1798 was a typo. I know that it's nothing like the probably correct L1805, but there you go. It won't be the first time I've come across serials in ORBs that aren't even close to being correct.