Rank of Pierre H. Clostermann in RAF

[Adrien]

Hi,

I know quite well the ranks that the French ace Pierre Clostermann successively reach in the Armée de l'Air through his career, but that is not the same for his career in the RAF.

I think that the very first rank that he reach in the RAF is Pilot Officer, since he studied at Cranwell around 1943. I am pretty sure that he finally reach the rank of Sqn Leader at the end of the war, but he may have been Wing commander, or Wing commander (acting).
Do you have more precise pieces of informations concerning his career in the RAF ?

Thanks.

[Peter Clare]

According to 'The Big Show' - Pierre Clostermann, he was a Flight Lieutenant on 4 May 1945.

Regards
Peter.

[Adrien]

Thanks Peter.
I do not have my copy of the Big show withe me, but if my remerbering is correct, at the end of the war he says that he enjoys signing a letter with the words "Pierre H. Clostermann, wing commander (acting)". Do you remember that part of the book ?

[Allan125]

I have the official 122 Wing history - published in Copenhagen in 1945 - and it doesn't state anywhere that he held any form of Wing Commander rank (however temporary), or even led the Wing.

Presumably his claim is from when "Boy" Brooker was killed on 16 April 1945 and before "Rosie" Mackie took command, if there was an actual break in the command chain?

As Mackie was commanding 80 squadron (as part of 122 Wing) I would think the promotion/move was virtually immediate?

No doubt somebody might have a copy of the 122 Wing ORB to see what it says about matters.

Allan

[Stephane Muret]

Hello,

As Pierre Clostermann wrote himself, in a letter published in french magazine "Avion" # 103 (october 2001), he was sent to 274 on february 02 1945 and made several operations as number 2 (#1 = Fairbanks) then was sent short time to 56 sqd (squadron commander in order to stand in for his friend Bruce Cole (from march 07 to april 23)) then to third squadron.
He was "temporary and acting" as Wing CO. for 122 Wing when the unit waited for new Wing CO Mackie, because he was one of the most experienced pilot available lthought he was only F/L.

Hope this could help.
Stephane

[CJE]

One more "urban legend".
As shown in 122 Wing records, Clostermann never lead the Wing in combat. He only was a F/Lt and much less experienced than many Squadron Leaders that flew with this Wing (such as Warren Schrader).
56 Sqn was commanded by Cotes-Preddy from Sept. 44 to Feb. 45. Bruce Cole has never been in charge of 56.
As far as I know, there was no gap between Brooker and Mackie.
The story of 122 Wing was told in Aéro-Journal n° 20 (Aug-Sept. 2001) and was never contested by Clostermann, who - I can tell you - read it carefully!

[Allan125]

As far as I can ascertain the piece below is the only mention of Pierre Clostermann in the official 122 Wing history (both editions) - which were both printed by J. H. Schultz a/s Universitets-Bootrykkeri, Kobenhavn - inside the front cover of the larger document it states "A short account of the operational career of 122 Wing was published at Flensburg in September 1945. The booklet aroused so much interest among all ranks of the Wing, for whom it was intended, that this second, more detailed, edition has been prepared. Schleswig, November 1945"

I hold both editions as they were issued to my father in 1945, he had moved to 122 Wing when 125 Wing disbanded in July 1945.

"On 15th April nine aircraft of 486 met nine F.W. 190s and destroyed eight of them without loss. One the following day a further five aircraft were destroyed and 104 vehicles were accounted for in 84 sorties, but the Wing suffered a severe blow when Wing Commander Brooker, D.S.O., D.F.C., failed to return after an air combat. Peter Brooker has been since January the mainspring and inspiration of the ceaseless onslaught on ground targets of all kinds. The new Wing Leader was W/Cdr E. D. Mackie, D.S.O., D.F.C., C.O. of 80 Squadron, who finished the war with twenty-five enemy aircraft to his credit. Another leading member of the Wing at this time was F/L Pierre Clostermann, who had twenty-two victories with the R.A.F. in addition to at least six with the French Air Force."

Perhaps placing the names of Brooker, Mackie and Clostermann in the same part of these documents has given rise to this confusion about command - however the document clearly states that he was a Flight Lieutenant, and nothing about any form of Wing Command or Leadership of the Wing in action.

I still believe that no time gap existed between the loss of Brooker and the appointment of Mackie as they flew from the same airfield.

Do any of our French colleagues know if the history of 125 Wing has ever been published in Aéro-Journal?

Allan

[CJE]

No, the story of 125 Wing has not been told in Aéro-Journal.
I have all microfilms of 122's squadrons ORBs and at no time Clostermann led anything bigger than a flight.

[Allan125]

for CJE

many thanks - a great pity nothing has been published

Allan