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  #1  
Old 28th February 2005, 03:31
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Eagle0025 Eagle0025 is offline
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12 Sep 44 Battle, 474th FG vs II./JG6, III./JG26, and JG?

Howdy all,
I have been researching the subject battle and need some help. The 474th FG (P-38s) went on independent armed recces in the Aachen-Monschau-Koln-Bonn sector during the afternoon. Between Zulpich and Duren, the 429th FS and 430th FS were bounced by Fw190As of II./JG6 and Bf109s of III./JG26. Two 429th FS and two 430th FS P-38s were shot down in the Zulpich area. II./JG6 also lost four Fw190s in the Zulpich area.

The 428th FS also encountered a group of twenty plus Fw190s, but the location was a significant distance to the southwest of Zulpich. The 428th FS had four claims in the area of Gemund and Schleiden (3 of them confirmed). A 428th FS P-38 was also shot down just southwest of Gemund, near the village of Herhahn.

Here is the mystery. There are no records that indicate either II./JG6 (or III./JG26) ventured this far south of Zulpich. This would indicate the presence of another unknown Fw190 unit.

I have two questions:

1. Does anybody have an idea of who this mystery Fw190 unit might have been? Certainly you would think there would be some Luftwaffe records that show at least three losses and one confirmed claim in the area of Gemund.

2. The 430th FS history shows that a Bf109 was witnessed flying into the ground and exploding while chasing a 430th P-38 (Lt. Mitchell) in a dive. The location of the crash is near the village of Dorweiler (north of Zulpich and east of Duren). Don Caldwell wrote in "The JG26 War Diary, Vol. II" that the Third Gruppe did not incur any losses on this mission. Doe anyone have any further info on this particular incident?

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Cheers, Gary Koch
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  #2  
Old 1st March 2005, 07:09
Joerg Dietsche Joerg Dietsche is offline
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Gary,
beside JG 6 - III./JG 27, II./JG 11, IV./JG 54 might be players. There task in Sep 1944 was to defend the area Cologne-Bonn. JG 27 had two losses on 12 Sep Olt ECKRICH (was his first combat sortie) and Lt Torfer.
III./JG 27 was based at Cologne-Wahn with its staff at Castle Allner near Siegburg.
I am investigating the same air battle. My team found in Oct 2003 the crash site of Lt HAZZARD (engine plate) 429th FG near Vettweiss-Kettenheim and we are lose to Lt Scott's site at Herhan-Morsbach..
I interviewed Lt Webster 430th FG who gave me his view of this engagement.
The German crash location at Dorweiler is not known to me. Uffz Tölle crashed at Jakobwüllesheim, Lt Karger at Vettweiss, Uffz Richter at Thum all of JG 6.
We might share our findings.
joergdietsche@hotmail.com

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  #3  
Old 1st March 2005, 22:30
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
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Lw-losses

There is no proof that these units were involved, actually it is highly unlikely;

III./JG 27: There is no evidence of missions, claims or losses related to 12 Sep 1944 for III./JG 27. The two losses you mention belong to II./JG 27 and occurred on 11 Sep 1944. Also this is a Bf 109 unit.

II./JG 11: Again there is no evidence of missions, claims or losses related to 12 Sep 1944 for II./JG 11. This is also a Bf 109 unit.

IV./JG 54: On 12 Sep 1944 this unit was stil based at Löbnitz and in "Auffrischung". On 18 Sep 1944 the unit moved to Plantlünne to take part in the combats over Arnhem-Nijmegen.

regards,

John Manrho.
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Old 1st March 2005, 23:25
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George Hopp George Hopp is offline
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Lw-losses

Is there any chance that they encountered USAAF P-47s, and battled with them?
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Old 1st March 2005, 23:42
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
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Who do you mean George?
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Old 2nd March 2005, 01:26
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Lw-losses

What I mean is that if there is almost no possibility of German units being involved, why not Allied forces coming into conflict. P-47s were often mistaken for Fw 190s. As for the P-38, that would be a difficult one, but not impossible for it to be mistaken for Fw 189s, or whatever the minds of the "P-47" pilots told them it was.
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Old 3rd March 2005, 02:38
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Eagle0025 Eagle0025 is offline
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12 Sep 44 Battle

First off, I would like to thank all who have replied. Your information is most helpful in trying to decipher this "hairball" as modern day fighter pilots would call it. As for George, I do not think that any Allied aircraft (e.g. P-47s) were involved. Virtually all of my former 474th FG pilot friends still alive today were well versed in aircraft recognition. I have no doubt they could tell the difference between an Fw190 and a P-47, even in a furious fight. Bob Milliken is a good friend of mine and I've interviewed him numerous times on this fight. He knocked down 2 Fw190s with 3 more damaged in that fight and he's certain he didn't see any other Allied planes other than P-38s in the area. Anyway, thanks again to all.
Cheers, Gary
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  #8  
Old 3rd March 2005, 18:27
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Don Caldwell Don Caldwell is offline
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JG 2 is a possibility.

According to an ULTRA intercept (XL-8), II. Jagdkorps flew 111 sorties in 4 major missions. Participating units were II./JG 6 & III./JG 26 (this combat is known to you) and "JG 2", not split out by Gruppen. The only JG 2 mission specifically described in this message was an attempted 8AF intercept, which was broken up by P-51s. My data say that these were from 4FG near Wiesbaden starting at noon, with other P-51 units joining in later. JG 2 lost 24 aircraft for the day, so it probably flew a second mission, the day's "4th" for II. Jagdkorps, and its Fw 190-equipped I. and/or III. Gruppen may have been involved in the 474FG's second fight. But this is pure speculation; I have no data on JG 2 claims or losses in the late afternoon.

The II. Jagdkorps message is careful to state that its data do not include anything for JG 53, which was in Jagddivision 5. But JG 53 was a Bf 109 outfit, so wasn't the Fw 190 unit you're looking for. The only other possibilities that come to mind would be a Schlachtgruppe or an Ergaenzungsgruppe, but I have no data.

Hope this helps.

Don Caldwell
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  #9  
Old 3rd March 2005, 19:15
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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12-Sep-44 losses

At the risk of getting caught up in this "furr-ball", there were also a number of Fw 190s from JG 3, 4 and 300 destroyed by non-attributed Allied type fighters, merely stated as "enemy fighters".

Not being that familiar with small European locations, I am not sure if the locations listed are near the areas first stated.
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  #10  
Old 4th March 2005, 18:18
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Don Caldwell Don Caldwell is offline
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Welcome to the furrball, John!

JG 4 was in a Gefechtsverband that intercepted the 8AF stream near Magdeburg. JG 3 and JG 300 were in another that intercepted near Berlin. All of their combats were far to the east of the 474FG battle -- geography is important, even in tiny Europe.

IMHO the 474th, a 9AF (tactical) unit, almost certainly engaged fighters of II. Jagdkorps, the main Jagdwaffe tactical command in the west. Their first combat is well established -- it was with II./JG 6 and III./JG 26. It's the second that's still a mystery. According to ULTRA intercept XL-8 (I didn't insert that stupid icon in my previous message!) the only other II. Jagdkorps unit engaged in a major way was JG 2, which lost 15 a/c + 9 not yet returned by nightfall. Most of these had obviously landed "away", as the daily RLM summary lists only 9 losses for I./JG 2, and none for any other JG 2 Gruppe. The ULTRA msg says the combat was with P-51s, the only known I./JG 2 claim was for a P-51, and time & location match 4FG documents perfectly. Whether P-38s also become involved in this combat, I can't say.

HTH and Horrido!

Don
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