Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 14th May 2019, 12:56
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,576
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Two dead for 94th BG

In the book , page 35 is the following text describing the participation of 94th BG in a raid on Flensburg, Germany:
"On May 19, 1943, Colonel Moore led 25 aircraft to Flensburg, Germany, near the border of Denmark. They were to bomb the Flensburger-Schifferabau marine ship building yard and sub-pens. Major Ralph Satlsman, Jr., flew as lead pilot with Colonel Moore. Approaching the target, moderate flak and light fighter opposition were encountered. In spite of the assessment of the opposition, bombardier Lt. C. B. Scott and radio operator F. J. Clemmons were killed. Charley Scott was over his bombsight when a fighter came in head on. When he fired, Scott was killed instantly and the navigator Don Mc Vicar was burned. Norman Stone, one of the gunners, remembered the attack. He said, "Captain Adams had to raise the nose of our Fortress to avoid a head on collision. Al Kleckner, the top turret gunner, fired 50 rounds into the cockpit of the German fighter. As he passed within fifteen feet of my waist window, I knew the pilot was dead and as he fell away the aircraft exploded.”"

One of the two men above was 2nd Lt Charles B Scott O-732672 of 410th BS, but I found no USAAF man named Clemmons killed that day. According to http://www.usaafdata.com/search, a TSgt Fred J Clemens 37136364 died this day but there is nothing on his unit or aircraft number in the database. It is close enough, but I would like to confirm he was the second KIA of 94th BG this day, and to know his squadron. Google has returned nothing, and this man is not listed in ABMC database, neither on findgrave (where you find many WWII dead brought back to US after WWII that are not registered by the ABMC).

Can someone help ? Thanks in advance
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 14th May 2019, 14:06
RSwank RSwank is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bloomington, IN USA
Posts: 1,011
RSwank is on a distinguished road
Re: Two dead for 94th BG

A little on Clemens.

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/3155...tar_and_times/


https://www.newspapers.com/clip/3155..._postdispatch/

Another article mentions his body being returned to the US in 1948.

Just to confuse things a little more:
On fold3 his headstone request says he was in the 401st BS, 91st BG. https://www.fold3.com/image/317820724

His grave shows also the 401st BS: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...fred-j-clemens


On this link (search for Clemens) it says that on April 26, 1943 T/Sgt Clemens (him?) was included with some others attached to the 91st BG from the 94th BG.
http://www.91stbombgroup.com/Dailies/401st1943.html

Last edited by RSwank; 14th May 2019 at 15:23.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 14th May 2019, 14:14
AMC's Avatar
AMC AMC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 80
AMC is on a distinguished road
Re: Two dead for 94th BG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti View Post
In the book , page 35 is the following text describing the participation of 94th BG in a raid on Flensburg, Germany:
"On May 19, 1943, Colonel Moore led 25 aircraft to Flensburg, Germany, near the border of Denmark. They were to bomb the Flensburger-Schifferabau marine ship building yard and sub-pens. Major Ralph Satlsman, Jr., flew as lead pilot with Colonel Moore. Approaching the target, moderate flak and light fighter opposition were encountered. In spite of the assessment of the opposition, bombardier Lt. C. B. Scott and radio operator F. J. Clemmons were killed. Charley Scott was over his bombsight when a fighter came in head on. When he fired, Scott was killed instantly and the navigator Don Mc Vicar was burned. Norman Stone, one of the gunners, remembered the attack. He said, "Captain Adams had to raise the nose of our Fortress to avoid a head on collision. Al Kleckner, the top turret gunner, fired 50 rounds into the cockpit of the German fighter. As he passed within fifteen feet of my waist window, I knew the pilot was dead and as he fell away the aircraft exploded.”"

One of the two men above was 2nd Lt Charles B Scott O-732672 of 410th BS, but I found no USAAF man named Clemmons killed that day. According to http://www.usaafdata.com/search, a TSgt Fred J Clemens 37136364 died this day but there is nothing on his unit or aircraft number in the database. It is close enough, but I would like to confirm he was the second KIA of 94th BG this day, and to know his squadron. Google has returned nothing, and this man is not listed in ABMC database, neither on findgrave (where you find many WWII dead brought back to US after WWII that are not registered by the ABMC).

Can someone help ? Thanks in advance
What book?
__________________
"My hat and scarf Nester"...….
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 14th May 2019, 22:31
ghostwriter's Avatar
ghostwriter ghostwriter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Southwest-Germany
Posts: 60
ghostwriter is on a distinguished road
Post Re: Two dead for 94th BG

@AMC:

Lingering contrails of the big square A:
a history of the 94th Bomb Group (H), 1942-1945

author Harry E. Slater
publisher Slater, 1980
378 pages
__________________
I won't let you dig around in my brain, I won't let you steal my little show!? dr. koch - "1984"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 14th May 2019, 23:35
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,576
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: Two dead for 94th BG

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMC View Post
What book?
Ooops; sorry forgot to paste the book title there... Ghostrwriter is right, it is "Lingering contrails of the big square A".

RSwank, a big thanks, you were far more efficient than me to find this Clemens on the Net (I had an awfully slow Internet those last days that did not help). For findagrave, I searched all Clemens for 1943, but the death date is registered as 19 May 1949, probably a mix of the real death date (19 May 1943) and the year he was reburied in the US. I have already seen this on findagrave.

The 1943 war diary for 401st BS also list the death of Clemens/Clemons on 19 May 1943:
"19 May 1943 – 2nd Lt Scott and T/Sgt. Clemons (94th Bomb Group attached) killed in action."
And then describes that 401st BS sent 3 aircraft for the raid, provides the crew list and there is no Scott nor Clemens/Clemons, and no casualty.

From the entry in April, it seems that Clemens was attached to 401st BS from 94th BG, at least that is how I read it. But the entries of 19 May seem to indicate that he was a 401st BS man attached to 94th BG and was lost aboard a 94th BG aircraft.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 15th May 2019, 13:11
AMC's Avatar
AMC AMC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 80
AMC is on a distinguished road
Re: Two dead for 94th BG

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostwriter View Post
@AMC:

Lingering contrails of the big square A:
a history of the 94th Bomb Group (H), 1942-1945

author Harry E. Slater
publisher Slater, 1980
378 pages
Please don't remind me of this book! cost me $400+Postage,
Oh dear......
__________________
"My hat and scarf Nester"...….
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 15th May 2019, 22:41
ghostwriter's Avatar
ghostwriter ghostwriter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Southwest-Germany
Posts: 60
ghostwriter is on a distinguished road
Post Re: Two dead for 94th BG



sorry ...
you asked for!?
not really a bargain at all ...
but maybe it is worth?

salute
ghostwriter
__________________
I won't let you dig around in my brain, I won't let you steal my little show!? dr. koch - "1984"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 16th May 2019, 14:44
FrancisM FrancisM is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bayern, Germany
Posts: 29
FrancisM is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Two dead for 94th BG

So does anyone know which aircraft these men were in? I assume it got back to base. I have the pilot as Captain Adams. What was the aircraft serial number?
Regards,
Francis
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 17th May 2019, 05:35
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 3,215
Alex Smart is on a distinguished road
Re: Two dead for 94th BG

Hello,
I did a search for a/c on 19th May 43.

91 BG
41-24483 - 6 kia, ( Poston; Peeler; Trimble; Rathgeber ; Berkovitz ; Thompson ), 4 pow ( Baxley ; Breeden ; Fulmer ; Hall ) - MACR 15632 ( But there were also 2 British News Men aboard - who were they and what became of them ?).

303BG - no details except 1 Kia ( Thomas ).

305 BG - no details except 2 Wia , Shank and Whitaker.
305 BG - 364 BS - 41-24573 MACR 15329 - 7 Kia, 3 Pow. Pilot: MacCauley.
305 BG - 364 BS - 41-24590 - MACR ? - 7 Kia, 3 Pow. Pilot : Kohler.
305 BG - 366 BS - 41-24624 - MACR 15549 - 3 Kia, 7 Pow : Pilot: Clark.
305 BG - 365 BS - 42-5155 - MACR 15448 - 1 Evd, 3 Kia, 6 Pow - Pilot: Higgins.

306 BG - no details - 1 Wia.

351 BG - no details - 1 Kia, ( C.H. Coyle) and 2 Wia.
351 BG - 510 BS - 42-29701 - MACR 15719 - 2 DVD, 3 Kia, 5 Pow - Pilot: Mansfield.

384 BG - 547 BS - 42-5851 - Ferry Flight - 10 Rtd - Pilot: Keck.

94BG - no details - 2 Kia ( Charles B. Scott and Fred J. Clemens ).

95 BG - 412 BS - 42-29694 - 1 Wia ( Storie ) - Pilot: Storie.
95 BG - 42-29737 - 3 Wia ( Manee, Bennett, Butterfield ) - Pilot: Robinson.

Ref for the above - "The Mighty Eighth Combat Chronology Supplement"

Alex
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 17th May 2019, 11:48
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,576
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: Two dead for 94th BG

Thanks, Alex, it seems that the details of the 94th BG that day are hard to find, but you confirm the name of the second KIA as Clemens.

Regarding 306th BG, I checked the book “First Over Germany: A History of the 306th Bombardment Group”, by Russell A. Strong, to see if the WIA is named. No luck, he only says that the "mission to Kiel on the 19th was uneventful and without losses", and then includes a report of Col Putman, 306th BG CO, about the mistakes done during this raid.

For 303rd BG, the detailled report is available online (http://www.303rdbg.com/missionreports/038.pdf) and says: "Sgt. Woodrow B. Thomas, a member of the 427th BS Ground Personnel, was Killed in Service this date. It is not known how or where he was killed." He is buried in Cambridge American War Cemetery, and so registered on the ABMC database, without a Purple Heart, so this may confirm he was not KIA, but killed in service, not by enemy action.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation? Johannes Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 49 7th January 2019 21:24
What's with USAAF losses? Stig1207 Allied and Soviet Air Forces 4 3rd January 2019 11:13
Walter Oesau investigating a victory kaki3152 Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 24 21st December 2018 19:58
B 17 losses 03.03.44 region Stargard Pom jarecki71 Allied and Soviet Air Forces 5 6th September 2012 00:03
29 may 1944, 15 AF raid to Austria - need help. Evgeny Velichko Allied and Soviet Air Forces 21 28th August 2009 10:49


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:45.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net