JG 54 near Leningrad in August, 1942

[Andrey Dikov]

Could anyone shed some light?

When did 1./JG 54 left Peta:jarvi base on Karelian isthmus (Finnland)?

Is it true it was replaced there by 7./JG 54 after its departure?

Am I right 7 staffel was alone near Leningrad before Soviet assault commenced on Aug, 27?

Where the Stab III./JG 54 stationed in August? Together with 8. and 9.?

[Juha]

Hello Andrey,
according to Finnish literature there were 15 Bf 109Fs of Osasto Philipp (Detachment Philipp), other name Kommando I./JG 54, operating from Petäjärvi and from Mensuvaara from July to Oct. 42. From Hannu Valtonen’s Luftwaffen pohjoinen sivusta (1997) p. 218 “According to photos the Det. was made from 1./JG 54. First Ju 52s carrying the ground echelon began to arrive on the evening of 28.6.42…” The last sorties mentioned in the book were flown on 29.10.

But there is also photos on planes of a Rotte from 7./JG 54 at Utti a/f on 23 June 42, one of the planes is that of 7th Staffel leader Oblt. Friedrich Rupp. I don’t know if this Rotte had anything to do with Kommando I./JG 54. Possible not. My very uninformed quess is that the Rotte was only visiting at Utti, maybe because something special at Kotka harbour.

Other sources
Hannu Valtonen’s Luftwaffe-kuvasto. Saksan ilmavoimat Suomessa ja Pohjois-Norjassa 1941-1944 (1998)
Kalevi Keskinen’s and Kari Stenman’s Saksalaiset koneet Suomessa 1939-1945 (1998)

BTW I’m sorry to learn that Vlad Antipov was not mentioned in that article in AIR MAG HORS-SÉRIE No.3. You Russian researchers have much to give to us westerners, not least because Your unique archival material. Hopefully AIR MAG HORS-SÉRIEwill correct this omission.

BTW2 I have heard rumours that the archives of a number of IAPs cannot be found nowadays because they were mislaid after the war or destroyed during the war. Do You know if there is any truth in these rumours?

Juha

[Andrey Dikov]

Hello Juha,

>according to Finnish literature there were 15 Bf 109Fs of Osasto Philipp (Detachment Philipp), other name Kommando I./JG 54, operating from Petäjärvi and from Mensuvaara from July to Oct. 42. From Hannu Valtonen’s Luftwaffen pohjoinen sivusta (1997) p. 218 “According to photos the Det. was made from 1./JG 54. First Ju 52s carrying the ground echelon began to arrive on the evening of 28.6.42…” The last sorties mentioned in the book were flown on 29.10.

Yes, thank you! I know the general story.

In fact I researched the combats over Ladoga lake in August-42 according to Tony Wood's claims list. I've found several events, when 1.Staffel Messerschmitts successfully intercepted Baltic Fleet AF Pe-2 long-range recce a/c over the lake and northern shore.

Around August 15-20, the claims of 1. had finished. And I've found for sure that on August, 24 four 7.Staffel pilots took part in combat with Soviet formation over Ladoga lake together with LeLv 26 Fiats.

I'd like to know, whether 7th had replaced the 1st in Peta:jarvi (it seems so), or it acted from Krasnogwardejsk.

And there's another case, with a combat of August, 18 over Gulf of Finnland - most famous for Finns as "16 vs. 60". I suppose 4 Germans also took part in it, but on initial phase, when LeLv 24 was just on the ground. I think it could be only 7./JG 54, which, perhaps, stationed on some of foremost airfields - Kerstowo or Kotly.

>But there is also photos on planes of a Rotte from 7./JG 54 at Utti a/f on 23 June 42, one of the planes is that of 7th Staffel leader Oblt. Friedrich Rupp. I don’t know if this Rotte had anything to do with Kommando I./JG 54. Possible not. My very uninformed quess is that the Rotte was only visiting at Utti, maybe because something special at Kotka harbour.

Could it be connected with Hitler's mission?


>Other sources
Hannu Valtonen’s Luftwaffe-kuvasto. Saksan ilmavoimat Suomessa ja Pohjois-Norjassa 1941-1944 (1998)
Kalevi Keskinen’s and Kari Stenman’s Saksalaiset koneet Suomessa 1939-1945 (1998)

Yes, I've read them.

BTW I’m sorry to learn that Vlad Antipov was not mentioned in that article in AIR MAG HORS-SÉRIE No.3. You Russian researchers have much to give to us westerners, not least because Your unique archival material. Hopefully AIR MAG HORS-SÉRIEwill correct this omission.

Thank you for support!

>BTW2 I have heard rumours that the archives of a number of IAPs cannot be found nowadays because they were mislaid after the war or destroyed during the war. Do You know if there is any truth in these rumours?

Yes, partially it's true. But in most cases you can find something you need just in arhives of other units, of higher level for example (divisions, corpses, air armies etc.).

[Jochen Prien]

Dear Andrey Dikov,

Jagdfliegerverbände Vol. 9 / III, which will be out - hopefully ( I'm a little bit cautious after the latest experience with 9/II ) - end of March / early April '06 will deal amongst others with the operations of JG 54 in the Leningrad area in 1942. I trust that you will be able to find at least some of the answers to yor questions there. Sorry that it will take a couple of weeks until then.

Cheers

Jochen Prien

[Jim P.]

>But there is also photos on planes of a Rotte from 7./JG 54 at Utti a/f on 23 June 42, one of the planes is that of 7th Staffel leader Oblt. Friedrich Rupp.<

Obviously we'll most likely get a definitive answer in a few months, but until then I still think Werner vom Hofe was the Kap. of 7./JG 54 in June 42, though I think he left for Staff jobs around that time - and he and Rupp had the same number of vics, at least that's what the claims listings say

[Juha]

Hello Andrey
I’m afraid that I cannot help more for time being. Just after the war written history of LeR 3 mentioned the German detachment and said that LLv 26 had rather much co-operation with that det. But we both knew that already and LLv 26 happened to be one of the sqns of FAF on which I know very little on.

The Rotte at Utti: Probably too late for the Hitler’s visit which happened 19 days earlier.

And thanks for the info on the archives of IAPs.

Best Regards
Juha

Jim P. Thanks for the clarification

Juha

[Andrey Dikov]

Thank you for reply, Dr. Prien.

Of course, I (and we all) watch and wait for the publication of every next volume, but I thought may be someone knows it already.

By the way, can you tell how much your list of JG 54 claims differs from Tony Wood's one? It doesn't matter, because your books are worth to buy anyway, but it's just interesting.

And a question about lists of III./JG 77 claims of September, 1942. Both - in your old JG 77 volume "1941-1942" and Tony Wood's list contain too few of them. And these lists are completely different. I wonder why, and will III./JG 77 list in forthcoming volume will contain much more claims?

In my current research I operate by those old lists and it would be great to understand how much the picture will change.

P.S. Can I send an email to you?

[Juha]

Hello
I pushed this tread up because today I accidentally came across copies of some pages of the German combat report of the Suho/Sukho operation, ie Einsatz "Brasil". It seems that the Siebel ferries claimed 8 a/c: 3 I-15s, 4 Il-2s and one LaGG-3.

Juha

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Juha, Christer and Prien,
I have learned a lot from this thread from you all.
Firstly that as human beings, we are all supposed to make mistakes and should be given the opportunity to correct them, researching and learning from others sources.
Secondly, when we deal with memory on ORAL HISTORY there is always some problems that arise. For example: I got the information from a RAF Navigator who flew Mosquitos that he has shot down a Ju 88 in May 1943. Thanks Chris Goss, who has access to the files of the Squadron in question, he corrected me on the month: it was JULY ( the date was correct ). So, it is always difficult to deal with memory, old archives, files that were SECURED or CLOSED for researches.
I do believe that thanks men like you and the pioneers ( Middlebrook, Aders, Baker, Nesbit, Bolitho and others ), Aviation and Military History is what it is today. You specially, Prien and Christer have contributed with your different styles to preserve the tradition of those first writers. We owe a lot to you, to John Vasco, to Chris Goss and so many others.
Please continue each of you, in your way - sharing or for security reasons hidding some information, but keep writing those fabulous histories you write. I am just a small "fish", but felt a bit disappointed the way the discussion took, although I learned a lot from this small piece of history in the great calleydoscope that is WW2.
With great admiration and my most sincere wishes of a good week to both of you I remain.
Sincerely
A. Baumgartner