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  #1  
Old 10th March 2011, 16:27
kennethklee kennethklee is offline
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Erich Hartmann - several questions

Hello-

I'm curious about several aspects of Erich Hartmann's career as a fighter pilot:

1. I've read several unverified accounts that the Russians offered a sizable reward (10,000-20,000 rubles) for Hartmann's capture or death. Does this scenario have any basis in truth?

2. Hartmann's primary biography to date, The Blond Knight of Germany, mentions Carl Junger as one of Hartmann's JG-52 comrades and as an "ace in his own right", IIRC. Was Junger an ace (5 or more victories)? Was Junger a real JG-52 pilot or is his name a pseudonym?

Thanks for reading and any information.

Ken
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Old 10th March 2011, 17:55
mars mars is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

The question to your first question is No
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Old 10th March 2011, 18:14
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

Hi

I think that almost certainly Junger didn't exist. In fact I would not believe almost anything from your book.
Contrary to belief Hartmann was not popular, in fact there was almost a mutiny within his Staffel over him. He only made high altitude attacks for one thing, I suspect he made fraudulent claims, he was a poor officer.
Forget your books victory list as well........it is well out, also apart from your books hundreds of little mistake and contradictions, there are a lot of non-truths!

Regards

Johannes
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Old 10th March 2011, 18:24
mars mars is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

He was also not popular after he took command of the I/JG 53
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Old 10th March 2011, 21:09
mathieu mathieu is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

Hi,

Is there any particular reason why he was not that popular? And about his claims, how many can be confirmed with the Russian records that became available after the collapse of the Soviet union?

Regards,

Mathieu.
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Old 10th March 2011, 21:48
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

Hi

Not all un-popular pilots were fraudsters Friedrich Geisshardt was unpopular because he was arrogant, his claims were good.
Kurt Welter's claims were outragous, and he was hated for it!
With Hartmann, he was known to look after number one, as stated before he took no part in ground attack misions, but if I was to guess I would say that other pilots whether right or wrong suspected false claims.
Regarding false claims his actual claimed (frequency) do suggest fraud, though so do Marseilles and he was honest! Let's say his claims if i had to guess honest or not, I would guess dis-honest. Forget the name but a member has stated 80 actually crashed, if that's 80 from 352 I don't know, in fact the last twenty's dates are not even 100% so how can they be judged?

Hartmann had a said end, after Barkhorn's death he became paronoid, would attend Luftwaffe meetings, or like to leave his house so much, also took to drinking too much and the smoking had aged him, he fell at home and hit his head.
So who actually shot doen the most aircraft is likely to be Rall or Barkhorn, both whose claims look honest, Lipfert is known to have been honest, and list claims suggest so, Nowotny and Rudorffer were frauds, as were Weissenberger and Erhler, Batz and Schuck are thought to be, as is Graf, don't really know about Hafner and Kittel. Schuck's total anyway is based on this statement that Goring had told him that an additional 25 of his claims had just been confirmed! I can find only 176 for him, but it should be 181! and Phillip is a little short of 200! Hackl about 150 but honest, Krupinski honest!

Regards

Johannes
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Old 10th March 2011, 22:35
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

Good stuff Johannes. BTW, What do you think about Heinz Baer's victories? I find his claims to be somewhat exagerated, damaged aircraft were counted as victories.
Kurt Buhlingen seems fairly accurate for JG-2, though his identifications were off at times. Heinz Bartels was wayyyy off. Priller and Glunz are accurate,witha few exceptions.
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Old 11th March 2011, 00:16
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

Johannes and Kaki; how were you able to determine the accuracy of these claimants; especially as I believe most of the pilots you cited (or at least most of their claims) were made agains the Soviets; have you been able to compare them to Soviet records?


Thanks
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Old 11th March 2011, 01:16
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

With Baer, i'm just going against his Western reported victories in the Western Desert, Malta, Tunisia and Western Europe.
The same thing with Buehilngen. I don't have much insight into claims against the Russians.
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Old 11th March 2011, 06:36
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

Hi

Regarding Oskar-Heinz Bar

Sometime's his claims are spot on, I should think that about 30% of what a pilot thinks he has got are not crashing, this is not fraudulency, but just not applying the tough "did you see it crash rule", as with Marseille about three quarters of his claims actually crashed, could be there wingmen who were struggling to keep up, watch there leader's tails, and keep themselves alive. Usually if somebody is making false claims it's with help, be especially suspicious of two or more guys making huge claims together! Also units Jg2 in the west and Jg5 in the East were particulary bad, with Jg5 it seems they believe they were abandoned with inferior equipment, so seem to work it together especially 6./Jg5. But on the other foot Jg53, Jg26 and Jg27 at least seem honest, then again some Jg2 pilots seem honest Meimberg and seeger string to mind, Mayer i think also. Jg5 seem to get one claim 3 on average, they have been exposed only because they were the only unit in that area! Rudorffer and Nowotny achieved there deception within Jg54, probably using a combination of there rank/position and wingmen to do this, with Rudorffer this was Kurt Tangermann, yet Robert Weiss of Jg54 seems pretty honest , and the pattern of his claims would also suggest so. Also be subspicious of a Geschwader having one staffel or Gruppe that stands out above the others! Night-fighters seem pretty honest as a group, again the did you see it crash might have something to do with this.....they stayed usually within a certain area, the witness was the crew itself, so were not so busy, the bombers often burned....and at night! the attacks were not fleeting like the daytime komrades!, there munitions were devestating! Also during the day on average only one out of ever two heavy bombers actually fell, but there HSS system probably didn't help. Some pilots totals contain u/c, some are just those confirmed, some are based on the points system, some on actual number of confimations. When looking at Walter Dahl, who might very well have been a fraud, his total of confimations is way dow, especially in the West, he only confimed half the heavy bombers he is believed to have got!
But do not dispare many Allied aces were frauds Douglas Bader became a celebrity, even avoided paying tax over his war-time claims, yet was undoubtedly a very big fraud, and a liar, he managed to conceal his fraudulence for all his life, yet his konrades knew or suspected his deception, possible even the MOD knew, but he was good publicity!

Regards

Johannes

P.S Also hard-line party believers seem to be particulary prominant amongst the fraudsters!!!
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