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Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

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  #1  
Old 21st November 2015, 11:59
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knusel knusel is offline
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Top Ten Hurricane aces

Hello, this is my Hurricane top ten ace list. Enjoy. Michael

NAME NAT KILLS HURRICANE KILLS
1. Marmaduke Pattle SA 50,67 [50+2] 35,33 [35+1] (provisionally)
2. Frank Carey GB 26,2 [25+3] 26,2 [25+3]
3. James Lacey GB 28 23
4. Michael Crossley GB 21 [20+2] 21 [20+2]
5. Geoffrey Allard GB 20,83 [19+5] 20,83 [19+5]
6. William Vale GB 31,5 [30+3] 20,5 [20+1]
7. Karel Kuttelwascher CZ 18,48 [18+2] 18
8. Albert Lewis SA 18 18
9. William McKnight CA 18 [17+2] 18 [17+2]
10. Archibald McKellar GB 18,2 [17+3] 17,5 [17+1]
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Old 21st November 2015, 14:15
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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Re: Top Ten Hurricane aces

OK, I take it that since you are crediting Pattle with 50+, that this is accepted "officially"? There was a long-standing controversy about his claims as all the paperwork was lost in the retreat from Greece.
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Old 21st November 2015, 14:22
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Top Ten Hurricane aces

Yeah, I know, that's why I indicated that score as provisionally.
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Old 21st November 2015, 19:45
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Top Ten Hurricane aces

Marmaduke Pattle "SA"?

It is interesting to place him as a ace SA, in fact he was not accepted to join SAAF in 1933 (total lack of money in military aviation). Then he had to emigrate to GB and he joined RAF.
The he had come from SA but was in fact pure RAF's ace, as he never was in SAAF.

Such information is not correct.

Next
There were in I ww 50 aces from SA but they all did serve in RFC or RAF or RNAS. The same there were not aces of SA (origin yes).

So all these pilots were in fact all RAF's aces (or British Commonwealth)

So it is better to write: Marmaduke Pattle RAF (SA)


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mw
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Old 22nd November 2015, 01:26
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: Top Ten Hurricane aces

Hello Knusel,
isn't most of what you seek covered in this website ? -

http://users.accesscomm.ca/magnusfamily/ww2.htmype of aircraft flown

Or check the names in the "Aces High" volumes, these list each claim and will in most if not all cases give squadron and type of aircraft flown, even serial number.
For the RAF Fighter Command there are the "RAF FIghter Command Victory Claims" three vols.

Alex
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Old 22nd November 2015, 10:18
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Re: Top Ten Hurricane aces

Hello Mirek,

the SA/GB/CA/CZ refers to the nationality, not the air force (see table header).

M
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Old 22nd November 2015, 10:46
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Top Ten Hurricane aces

The problm is for example with Jozef Frantisek a Czech, fought in Polish Squadron in BoB (17 claims) and this squadron no 303 was never RAF but Polish one. Polish Air Force was subordianted to RAF, but was not a RAF.

The question is: whose ace Jozef Frantisek.
During BoB were also Czech fighter squadon, and when you put this letter CZ it is not in fact clear?

For me J.F. was our ace (Polish-Czechoslovak). He was in defence of Poland in IX 39 and later served in Polish 303. (PAF) Squadron. He never in his war career did serv in Czechoslovak or RAF unit.

During each war for many man is very imporatnt such value as Brothers in Arms, this is much more stronger feeling then common nationality.


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mw
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Old 27th November 2015, 13:04
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Top Ten Hurricane aces

Hello Mirek,

I can understand your point, however, it's rather difficult for me to imagine that Frantisek felt being something different than Czech.

Poland has a long history of its heroes being claimed by other nations: Kopernikus, Chopin, Marie Curie, Pope John Paul...
Germany's number of similar cases is somewhat shorter: Mozart, Einstein...
In my German perspective, the nationality of the parents is decisive for a person's nationality. However, French and Americans might see this totally different.

...but back to the Hurricane: Sadly, Polish Hurricane hero narrowly Witold Urbanowicz misses out the top ten (15 Hurricane kills).

Cheers,

Michael
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Old 27th November 2015, 19:54
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Top Ten Hurricane aces

This is not that way

After WW I Austrain Franc Peter (6 kills) had stayed in Poland and he think about himself as a Pole. Died in Poland after WW II

Franc Gogwin Brumowski (top Austro-Hungarian ace) who was born in Vadovice (in Poland) never live in Poland and think about himsel as a Austrian officer.

This is important - brothers in arms values and when you fight side by side, you are "loosing your nationality" and you are simple "ours".

One of Haubsburg family during WWII declaed to be Polish despite his Austrian origin. This is not such simple way, no way, :-)


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mw
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Old 1st January 2016, 15:37
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Re: Top Ten Hurricane aces

Happy new year Mirek,

can you tell me something about the national self-consciousness of Marmaduke Pattle and Albert Lewis ? When they were born South Africa was a British dominion, in 1934 South Africa became independent. Did they see themselves as British or South Africans ?

Michael
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