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  #11  
Old 28th April 2017, 15:16
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Curtiss P-40 top ten ace list

Hello Juha,

how do you explain those often quoted scores such as Shestakov's 8+31 Spanish Civil War kills or Novichkov's 19 P-40 kills ?
Fantasy ?
Lies ?
Propaganda ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael
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  #12  
Old 28th April 2017, 21:11
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Re: Curtiss P-40 top ten ace list

Quote:
Originally Posted by knusel View Post
Hello Juha,

how do you explain those often quoted scores such as Shestakov's 8+31 Spanish Civil War kills or Novichkov's 19 P-40 kills ?
Fantasy ?
Lies ?
Propaganda ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael
I don't know. Looked from Maslov's Polikarpov I-15, I-16 and I-153 Aces (Osprey) info on Shestakov. In text he writes that Shestakov got 2+1 in Spain but added that some sources put his score in Spain at 8 aircraft shot down. And later, after a very short survey on Shestakov's actions during the GPW, that "In 82 aerial engagements he achieved 15 individual and 11 shared kills prior to his death in combat on 13 March 1944,...Shestakov's total score, including his service in Spain, had risen to 23 individual and 44 shared victories..." This last figure is also in the "Soviet Polikarpov Aces" table at the end of the book. So Shestakov's score in Spain was 2+1, 8 or 8+33 according to Maslov.
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  #13  
Old 29th April 2017, 19:40
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Curtiss P-40 top ten ace list

Hello Juha,

you're right, I checked the Maslov book again.
Personally, I would not consider it impossible for Shestakov to score 8 individual plus more than 30 shared kills in Spain. But I think it's virtually impossible to do so and becoming a HSU not until 10Feb1942. Thus, I assume a spain score of 2+1sh is far more likely.

After scrutinizing the website that's based on Bykov's work, my P-40 top ten ace list needs an update:

ace: P-40 score(total score)
  1. Caldwell: 20,5(28,5)
  2. Drake: at least 16(21)
  3. Pokryshev: 15,1(23,6) - according to Bykov
  4. Hill: 13,25(15,25)
  5. Litavrin: 13(18) - according to Bykov
  6. Hampshire: 13(13)
  7. Holloway: 13(13)
  8. Neale: 13(13)
  9. Edwards: 12,83(16,08)
  10. Zotov: 12,73-13,73(22,18-23,18) - according to Bykov

I dropped Waddy (12,5 P-40 kills) and Novichkov (6,33 P-40 kills according to Bykov, 19 P-40 kills according to Mellinger).

Some questions remain:
  • I'm still looking for Drake's definite P-40 score. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=45616
  • How many pilots took part in the Viktor Zotov's 2 shared kills on 30Sep1942 ?
  • I found a guy in the www: Михалин Михаил Федорович with 14+2sh P-40 kills. Is he real ?

Michael

Last edited by knusel; 1st May 2017 at 14:14.
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  #14  
Old 16th June 2017, 12:25
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Re: Curtiss P-40 top ten ace list

Update: I found another high-scoring P-40 pilot named Nikolai Zelenov.
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/zh/zelenov_na.htm
Total score of 33,4 [30+12],
P-40 score: 19,23 [17+8]

Michael
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  #15  
Old 16th June 2017, 15:32
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Curtiss P-40 top ten ace list

Hello Michael.
The Russian scores seem to have many variations - it seems to me more so than for other nations. narod.ru has Zelenov as [30+10]. Other scores have him as [24+12], [24+10] and [29+8], but I'm pretty sure you would have seen those already. Maybe they are WW2 only, and how these variations might affect your lists ......
Peter
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  #16  
Old 17th June 2017, 22:55
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Re: Curtiss P-40 top ten ace list

Good evening Peter,

yes, the Soviet scores differ so much in different sources.
I think this website
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/m.htm
is based of the research results of Mr. Bykov and therefore the best source in the www.

Can you confirm that Mikhail Mikhalin (Михалин Михаил Федорович) has scored his 14+2 kills in the P-40 ? Or can you tell the the decimals of his shared kills ?

Michael
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  #17  
Old 22nd June 2017, 15:34
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Re: Curtiss P-40 top ten ace list

Update: by courtesy of Stukapilot I learned that Mikhail Mikhalin (Михалин Михаил Федорович) has scored 14 individual kills and two half-shares. The aircraft he flew can be determined by having a look on what his comrades in 126. and 191. IAP flew:
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/b/belyasnik.htm
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/l/litvinenko.htm
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/m/mitrohin.htm
It is justified to say that he scored all of his kills in the P-40 except his last one (La-5). Thus he deserves a rank within the P-40 top ten list and Mr Edwards has to be dropped:
  1. Caldwell: 20,5 (28,5)
  2. Zelenov: 19,23 (33,4)
  3. Drake: at least 16 (21)
  4. Pokryshev: 15,1 (23,6)
  5. Mikhalin: 14 (15)
  6. Hill: 13,25 (15,25)
  7. Litavrin: 13 (18)
  8. Hampshire: 13 (13)
  9. Holloway: 13 (13)
  10. Neale: 13 (13)
  • possibly: Zotov: 12,73-13,73 (22,18-23,18)
I wish I knew to decimals of Viktor Zotov's 2 shared kills on 30Sep1942.

Cheers,

Michael
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  #18  
Old 28th June 2017, 11:33
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Re: Curtiss P-40 top ten ace list

Addendum:
  • the top US P-40 ace is Hill with 13,25 kills (scored in the AVG & USAAF)
  • the top USAAF P-40 aces are Hampshire and Holloway with 13 kills each
  • the top AVG ace is Neale with 13 kills
Cheers,

Michael
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  #19  
Old 29th June 2017, 01:58
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Re: Curtiss P-40 top ten ace list

As a suggestion Michael, in listing the P-40 aces is it worthwhile to break them down by Theatre?

Doesn't affect the Soviets or British as in their Theatre of Ops (Russia and Western Desert respectively) they always faced the same enemy ie Germans, over basically the same country.

But there is quite a difference with the Americans. They flew the P-40 in greatly varied circumstances each unique ie MTO, CBI and SWP. Each of the four Americans you have mentioned all fought in the CBI.

In the SWP the top scoring P-40 pilot was Robert deHaven with 10 victories. In the MTO it was Levi Chase, also with 10 victories.
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  #20  
Old 29th June 2017, 09:36
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Re: Curtiss P-40 top ten ace list

Good morning Jim,

interesting consideration.
Currently, I'm trying to prove that the P-40 scored kills on all five continents:
  • Europe: Nikolai Zelenov & Co
  • Africa: Clive Caldwell & Co
  • Asia: David Hill & Co
  • Australia & Oceania: Robert DeHaven & Co
  • America: John Cape shot down a Zero over Umnak Pass in a P-40E on 4Jun42
In Germany we associate Hawaii with Oceania rather than with America, that's why I'm not inclined to count George Welch's Pearl Harbor kills as "America kills".
I think I need a proof that Umnak Pass and the Aleutian Island belong to America geographically.

Michael

Last edited by knusel; 29th June 2017 at 15:15.
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