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  #1  
Old 11th June 2018, 20:35
Theo Boiten Theo Boiten is offline
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crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?

Dear all,

Who can help me with any info on the crash location of 51 Squadron Halifax HR852, which was lost to Flak on the 11-12 June 1943 Düsseldorf raid? The complete crew of eight (including two RCAF and one USAAF crew members)were taken PoW.

Cheers, Theo
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  #2  
Old 12th June 2018, 04:38
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?

Hello Theo,
I see that this question has not yet been resolved, your post on the RAF Commands Forum, circa 2014 had a nil responce.
I fully expect that you have done your research thoroughly.
So just to perhaps refresh memories.
In all 16 Halifax bombers were lost.

Tony Woods file for this night.
11 Halifax claims were claimed.
Ofw. Reinhard Kollak - 1./NJG1 - 00.41
Maj. Werner Streib - Stab1./NJG1 - 01.05 ( Roermond), Netherlands.
Hptm. Siegfried Wandam - 1./NJG1 - 01.18.
Maj. Werner Streib - 1./NJG1 - 01.20 - (Rheinberg), Germany. [JD117 ? ].
Hptm. Manfred Meurer - 3./NJG1 - 01.40 ( Zutphen), Netherlands.
Oblt. Eckart-Wilhelm von Bonin - 6./NJG1 - 01…47. [DT805 - Op: Düsseldorf ?].
Only. Eckart-Wilhelm von Bonin - 6./NJG1 - 01.47. [ JD168 ?].
Oblt. Walter Barte - 4./NJG1 - 01.52.[ DK170 ?].
Hptm. Manfried Meurer - 3./NJG1 - 01.55 - [JD143 ? - Flak ?] - Germany.
Maj. Werner Streib - Stab1./NJG1 - 01.55 - [ HR719 ?] - Netherlands.
Maj. Werner Streib - 1./NJG1 - 02.22 - [W7932 ?] - Netherlands.
Lt. Werner Baake - 1./NJG1 - 02.43 - [JB785 - Op: Düsseldorf ?] - Netherlands.


DT742 - Ditched.
HR797 - Flak, Ditched.

DG406 - Op: SOE - LWT.

HR788 - Oosterschelde, Holand.
DK200 - Scherlebeck,Germany.
HR684 - Voerde, Germany.
JB972 - Flak - Krefeld, Germany.
HR852 - Flak ?

There would usually be an MACR for any American serviceman lost, but as he was pow, then as far as RAF were concerned he was not "lost" so the Americans would not perhaps have been made aware of his circumstances ?

All for now
Apologies in advance for any typo/spelling errors
Alex
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Old 12th June 2018, 05:46
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is offline
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Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?

Hello,

For Theo's latest research on the losses of 11/12 June 1943, I advise members to consult the following:

Nachtjagd Combat Archive A comprehensive operational history of the German night fighter force on all fronts and an analysis of all claims including Flak units against RAF Bomber Command - 1943 - Part One -1st January - 22nd June.
Boiten,Theo
Walton-on-Thames:Red Kite,2018.
pp.111-15

Col.
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Old 12th June 2018, 06:17
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?

Hello Col,
Are you saying that the answer could be in a book by Theo ?
If so I cannot understand why he is asking the question ?

As an extra,
Re: F/O. D.S.Roberts USAAF. Pow.
I could only find a F/O. Braxton S. Roberts, T-190800 - USAAC, POW date 12 June 1943.
So I wonder if the "D" was a mistake ?
Will look for Braxton's a/c later today.
05.15 hrs here
Good night
Alex
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Old 12th June 2018, 08:35
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is offline
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Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?

Hello,

1/ No!
Professor Boiten does not mention the fate of/nor location of the crash site of No.51 Sqn Halifax HR852. In fact, he doesn't specifically mention it at all. Hence his query! He does include, as accurate as is possible at the present, an account of known Nachtjagd and Flak claims over BC aircraft for 11/12 June 1943.

A much more productive area for further research, might be the POW Questionnaires of the RAF/RCAF members of the crew of Halifax HR852.

Col.

Last edited by Col Bruggy; 12th June 2018 at 09:08.
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Old 12th June 2018, 13:53
Icare9 Icare9 is offline
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Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?

Alex appears to be correct in tracing Braxton as B S Roberts. See https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record-...,109612,109696

Hopefully the Liberation Questionnaires may give better location of the crash site.
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Old 12th June 2018, 18:23
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?

Hello all,
Thanks for the clarification Col, now I understand your comment.
And YES, in Henk's list he has Braxton S. Roberts - F/O ( co-pilot) T-190800.
It goes with the NARA pow detail in the link ICare provided.

So the initial "D" is incorrect in Chorley's BCL vol 4.
Will look for additions/corrections in the later vols.

All the best
Alex
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Old 12th June 2018, 21:03
Icare9 Icare9 is offline
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Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?

Braxton's presence as second pilot would also explain the 8 man crew, with him being aboard to gain experience and evaluate Bomber Commands tactics.
Doesn't help with crash location as yet, but for all to be PoW's including the pilot might infer a crash landing rather than an uncontrolled descent.
The absence of any eyewitnesses from Occupied territories might also indicate the crash was "somewhere" in Germany, rather than France, Belgium, Holland etc.
All just supposition though.
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Old 12th June 2018, 21:17
Theo Boiten Theo Boiten is offline
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Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?

Thanks for all your much appreciated replies. I will indeed try and obtain the POW Questionnaires of the RAF and RCAF members of the crew of Halifax HR852. This will hopefully help in finding the (approx) crash location of the aircraft.


Cheers, Theo
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Old 12th June 2018, 21:51
RSwank RSwank is offline
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Re: crash location 51 Sqn Halifax HR852, 11-12 June 1943?

A newspaper story on Braxton Roberts. The story starts halfway down the first column, "Cape Soldier is Liberated......"

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/20903485/

I think he may have been shot down not on his first mission "with" the AAF but perhaps on his "final" mission with the RAF/RCAF. He may have just transferred to the AAF but had not yet been assigned or moved to a U.S. unit.

Last edited by RSwank; 13th June 2018 at 15:20.
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