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  #51  
Old 13th February 2010, 02:53
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Hi Larry,

thanks for the additional analysis.

The RV network is the most logical explanation for the dispartity in intercepted material. What is less clear is how much Enigma wireless traffic was either missed entirely or not successfully decrypted.

I should qualify my statement, which you quoted - it only applies to my experience with Nachtjagd or Nachtjagd-related material by higher headquarters in 1945. One example that strings to mind are air situation reports issued by Jafue Mittelrhein in March 1945 - there were a string of them between successful actions on 5-6 March 1945 and 16-17 March 1945, but not one covering the two nights mentioned.

Even the previously volumous NJG4 ULTRA material dried up from mid-April 1945 when Luftwaffe units began retreating into northern Germany and, presumably, used the RV network.

Cheers

Rod

The following gives an idea of (mostly) Gruppe-level operational reports by NJGs during 1945 that are contained in HW 5:

I./NJG4 ops 1-2 Jan 45 (Nachtschlacht)
2./NJG6 (Lt Artus) ops report 1-2 Jan 45
III./NJG4 ops 2-3 Jan 45 (NO OPS)
I./NJG4 ops 3-4 Jan 45 (NO OPS)
I./NJG4 ops 5-6 Jan 45 (No ops)
I./NJG4 ops 5-6 Jan 45 (No ops)
III./NJG4 ops 8-9 Jan 45 (NO OPS)
I./NJG4 ops 8-9 Jan 45 (NO OPS)
III./NJG4 ops 10-11 Jan 45
I./NJG4 return showing landings on 10-11 Jan 45, with pilot names
III./NJG4 ops 12-13 Jan 45 (No ops)
III./NJG4 ops report 14-15 Jan 45
III./NJG4 ops report 3-4 Feb 45
I./NJG4 ops report 1-2 Feb 45
3 JD observations made by III./NJG4 and I./NJG 2 ops 10-11 Feb 45
III./NJG4 ops report 2-3 Feb 45
III./NJG4 ops report 14-15 Feb 45
II./NJG1 comment on ops 20-21 Feb 45
I/.NJG4 battle report 16-17 Feb 45 (NO OPS)
III./NJG4 ops report for night 21-22 Feb 45
III./NJG4 battle report 20-21 Feb 45 (NO OPS)
I./NJG4 ops report 21-22 Feb 45
III/.NJG4 battle report 23-24 Feb 45 (NO OPS)
I./NJG4 battle report 25-26 Feb 45 (NO OPS)
III/.NJG4 battle report 25-26 Feb 45 (NO OPS)
I./NJG4 ops reports 1-2 Mar 45 & 2-3 Mar 45 (NO OPS)
I./NJG4 ops report 27-28 Feb 45
III./NJG4 ops report 3-4 Mar 45 (excl Gisela)
II./NJG101 ops report 14-15 Feb 45 (note - also reports no ops between 2/2-13/2)
I./NJG4 ops reports 3-4 Mar 45 (DOR & Gisela) & 4-5 Mar 45 (Adelheid)
III./NJG4 ops report 4-5 Mar 45 (Adelheid)
III./NJG4 ops report 7-8 Mar 45
III./NJG4 ops report 5-6 Mar 45
I./NJG4 ops report 27-28 Feb 45
I./NJG4 ops report 12-13 Mar 45 (NO OPS)
I./NJG4 ops report 10-11 Mar 45
?./NJG4 ops 14-15 Mar 45 (NO OPS – Gruppe unknown)
I./NJG4 ops report 5-6 Mar 45
?./NJG4 ops 14-15 Mar 45 (NO OPS – Gruppe unknown)
I./NJG4 ops report 13-14 Mar 45 (NO OPS)
I./NJG4 ops report 15-16 Mar 45
II./NJG101 ops report 16-17 Mar 45
I./NJG4 ops report 16-17 Mar 45
III./NJG3 ops 7-8 Mar 45 (note - about instructions passed via W/T)
III./NJG2 combat report 17-18 Mar 45 (Adelheid)
II./NJG101 ops report 16-17 Mar 45
I./NJG4 ops 7-8 Mar 45
I./NJG4 ops report 18-19 Mar 45
I./NJG4 experiences report 18-19 Mar 45
I./NJG4 ops report 15-16 Mar 45
2 JD data, then I./NJG4 ops report 21-22 Mar 45
III./NJG2 combat report 17-18 Mar 45 (Adelheid)
I./NJG4 ops 21-22 Mar 45
I./NJG4 ops 20-21 Mar 45
III./NJG4 ops 22-23 Mar 45
I./NJG4 ops 18-19 Mar 45
I./NJG4 ops 19-20 Mar 45
I./NJG4 report on attack on Vechta 24 Mar 45
III./NJG4 ops report 24-25 Mar 45
I./NJG4 ops 26-27 Mar 45
I./NJG4 Nachtschlacht 24-25 Mar 45
NJG6 Nachtschlacht 25-26 Mar 45
I./NJG4 ops report 20-21 Mar 45
III./NJG4 ops 21-22 Mar 45
I./NJG4 ops 27-28 Mar 45 (NO OPS)
Fliegerkorps IX (J) mentioning 7./NJG11 successes on 7-8 Apr 45
NJG1 ops 19-20 Apr 45
I./NJG 1 ops report 19-20 Apr 45
4./NJG 2 ops report for 29-30 Apr 45
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  #52  
Old 13th February 2010, 16:19
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is online now
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Rod - Have you had an opportunity yet to work with any of the 47 periodic wartime reports issued by Air Ministry/A.I. 4 Signals Intelligence? By these I mean those that carried the catchy titles "Canterbury", "Pearl/ZIP", "Pearl/ZIP/BMP", "CIRO", "Beta Krass", "Gamma Krass", "BATS", "OWL/ROBOT", "Orchestra", etc., etc. Nearly half of the 47 are devoted to Luftwaffe night fighter operations and might aid your analysis since the signals intelligence used came from other than Enigma/ULTRA. I do not know exactly what you are working on, so this is just a thought. From my recollection of the handful of these I saw, they plot and report each and every Lw. night fighter that took off and landed and what they were doing while aloft. Very comprehensive from late 1943 to the end of the war.

Larry
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  #53  
Old 14th February 2010, 02:23
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Hi Larry,

rather than get off-topic in this thread, I've started a new thread, which I hope will stimulate discussion on non-ULTRA Y material on the Luftwaffe:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...416#post101416

Cheers

Rod
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  #54  
Old 14th February 2010, 19:16
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is online now
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

I wish you luck, Rod. Unfortunately, this web site has over the years become little more than losses and claims as you can see from the postings. Most of the more serious minded researchers and historians gave up years ago and are long gone. How I wish that weren't so. I have a working hypothesis as to "why", but I will keep it to myself. I hope I am wrong and your thread generates a healthy interest and response.

Larry
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  #55  
Old 14th February 2010, 19:41
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Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry deZeng View Post
Unfortunately, this web site has over the years become little more than losses and claims … Most of the more serious minded researchers and historians gave up years ago and are long gone … I have a working hypothesis as to "why", but I will keep it to myself.
A bit of a sweeping assessment unless you know what people want the various pieces of information for, don't you think?

I can make no claims to be a serious-minded anything but the information I gather is to try and understand what happened in the war (or various neglected corners of it): claims and losses are part of the sequence of events in the fighting. Veterans I've met and corresponded with were always fascinated to know who "the other guy" was.

Such information certainly isn't everything but it's part of the picture.
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  #56  
Old 26th April 2010, 11:58
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

A little off-topic but an example of the usefulness of hindsight that was not available to Allied Intelligence at the time new ULTRA material was decrypted. This may make some smile...

In HW 5/651, CX/MSS/R.437/A/43 was the first mention of the R4M rocket.

Here is the Allied assessment (probably in consulation with Dr. Jones, ADI (Science)):

"NOTE - None of the above equipment previously reported. EG/R4M - suggested that R may equal RAUMBILD, stereoscopic principle, and the 4M may indicate some kind of range-finder on a 4-metre base."

Cheers

Rod
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  #57  
Old 5th May 2010, 08:30
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AndreasB AndreasB is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Hi

Does someone know the file numbers for the tabulated losses of the GAF, produced by the RAF after the war, and broken down by month and theatre?

Many thanks in advance.

All the best

Andreas
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  #58  
Old 17th May 2010, 13:14
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasB View Post
Hi

Does someone know the file numbers for the tabulated losses of the GAF, produced by the RAF after the war, and broken down by month and theatre?

Many thanks in advance.

All the best

Andreas

Hi Andreas,

I presume that you are meaning:

AIR 20/7709 Translations from Captured Enemy Documents : Vol. X 1942 – 1944
Luftwaffe Losses – Western Front (LF 3) May 44 VII/133
Luftwaffe Losses – Area of Luftflotte Reich May 44 VII/134
Luftwaffe Losses – Western Front Jan.-Apr. 44 VII/135
Luftwaffe Losses – Western Front Jun. 44 VII/136
Luftwaffe Losses – Area of Luftflotte Reich Jan.-Apr. 44 VII/138
Luftwaffe Losses – Area of Luftflotte Reich Jun. 44 VII/139

AIR 20/7710 Translations from Captured Enemy Documents : Vol. XI 1955 – 1956
Luftwaffe Losses – Western Front (Luftflotte 3) Sep.-Nov. 44 VII/145
Luftwaffe Losses – Norway (Luftflotte 5 West) Jul.-Nov. 44 VII/146
Luftwaffe Losses – Mediterranean (Luftflotte 2 and Lw Kommando Süd Ost) Jul.-Nov. 44 VII/147
Luftwaffe Losses – Western Front (Luftflotte 3) Sep.-Dec. 43 VII/148
Luftwaffe Losses – Luftflotte Reich Area Sep.-Dec. 43 VII/149
Luftwaffe Losses – Mediterranean Sep.-Dec. 43 VII/150
Luftwaffe Losses – Western Norway (Luftflotte 5 West) Sep.-Dec. 43 VII/151
Luftwaffe Losses – Eastern Front Sep.-Dec. 43 VII/152


AIR 20/7711 Translations from Captured Enemy Documents : Vol. XII 1956 – 1957
Luftwaffe Losses – Defence of the Reich Jun.-Aug. 43 VII/157


Cheers

Rod
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  #59  
Old 17th May 2010, 13:34
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

This is a question primarily for Nick, or anyone else who has been working with the HW 5 files:

have you managed to have a look at HW 5/718 Unreported Documents 6/4/44 to 2/5/45.

For anyone that has tried to marry up the DEFE 3 signals to Allied Commands and the originating HW 5 signals for the 1944-45 period, it becomes obvious that the 'standard' bound HW 5 volumes do not contain all of the intercepted signals used as the basis of the signals to Allied Commands. In a small percentage of DEFE 3 signals and some of the T. reports, the originating information is given as 'unreported documents' and it is clear that this was a source of signals, some reasonably significant. that are not to be found in the standard volumes.

I suspect that these 'missing' signals can be found in HW 5/718, and are wondering if anyone has actually had a look at the file...

Cheers

Rod
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  #60  
Old 17th May 2010, 13:57
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Quote:
Originally Posted by RodM View Post
This is a question primarily for Nick, or anyone else who has been working with the HW 5 files:

Have you managed to have a look at HW 5/718 Unreported Documents 6/4/44 to 2/5/45?

Cheers

Rod
Not yet but it sounds like a good plan. I'm not likely to be there before Autumn though.
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