Luftwaffe vs Swedisch

[focusfocus]

Hello

I discovered that the book of Girbing was reissued in 2012 and that according to the edition(mine dates from 1976) the narration of events are so disputes.
I had for some time doubts about the facts reported in this book but now my opignon is made (I have a cabinet to stall)

Let's forget my questions

Thanks anyway
michel

[gaupe75]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Thanks Gaupe

This changes a bit the original request.
However checking (again) Mombeek there is no claim which could correspond, even if I don't know who this wingman was.

Even worse I am unable to locate anything on the Swedish side which should correspond to this claim. No diplomatic crises either. As per many years ago anything like this would have been declassified, probably not even classified at all in the first place.

No idea from where Girbig has got this information.

This is probably from an interview with Gayko. He also refers to that both Ehrler and Schuck went up as first to chase after the bombers.

Schuck was at sick leave, so the memory of Gayko and the fact checking of Girbig shows that there is reason to be aware of these claims.

[Kari Lumppio]

Hallo!

October 8th, 1944 there was incident where two German Bf 109s attacked and shot at Swedish (SAAB) S 17 reconnaissance aircraft. Gayko was involved according Hannu Valtonen who writes shortly about the case in his book "Pohjoinen ilmasota". The incident took place near Ala-Vojakkala (Finland, very near Swedish border North from Kemi)), but on Swedish side. Swedes had reconnaissance mission including photographing road crossing at Ala-Vojakkala. This may have included intrusion into Finnish airspace?

The S 17 was nr "50" from 5. Div/Flygflottilj 3. Crew, pilot Fänrik Nordenborg and observer Ljt Enderlein apparently unharmed.


Cheers,
Kari

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Kari, very interesting!

Now knowing where to look, it seems Swedish historians have taken rather lightly about the incident.

It is not mentioned in the B 17 book I have, and checking the F 3 wing history, all they say is: 'On a few occasions aircraft from the F 3 wing came under fire from German AA guns and on one occasion was shot at by a German fighter, in spite of being very careful to keep itself on the Swedish side of the border.'

Incidentally the border is very easy to recognize from the air. If the Swedish aircraft was in fact straying over the border or not is anyones guess.
If this in fact caused any diplomatic protest is unknown by me, and I find myself wondering if the S 17 was indeed hit.

BTW, it is a pity many of Valtonen's books has not been translated into English.

Of course, during the war there were far worse incidents against Swedish aircraft (both military and civil) than this.

Cheers
Stig

[focusfocus]

WHOO!WHOO! AWESOME,this is interesting information!!

So my sources were not completely "wacky"

A BIG thank you to you Kari

michel

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

For the info you have to thank Hannu Valtonen and his book.

Lennart Andersson in his book "Svenskt militärflyg - propellerepoken" p. 142 writes that F3 was in war formation - 5 reconnaissance divisions each with 6 planes. In September 1944 5./F3 was sent to Kalixfält with eight S17 and one S14 (Storch). Their mission was to follow German retreat from Finland. In October 1944 they flew also from Kiruna.

BTW Where is "Kalixfält"? Old Kiruna airfield (F34) is Kalixfors, but it is not the same?

On p. 141 Andersson has table where this detachment is given as "VI.grp" (grupp) with 3 S17 and 1 S 14 at "Boden/F21". Which is true? Was there three or eight S 17 there?

I am still interested to know what individual S 17 were in the detachment? Haven't been able to find this out. It is more than ten years when I last looked into the matter, though.

This interest is because the rare emblem reportedly painted on the 5./F3 planess. Photo in Hellström & Fredin Kronmärkt, p. 113. An indian looking out behind a cloud. Especially am interested to know if S 17 "50" had this emblem.

BTW Andersson (p. 295) gives two S 17 individuals with code 3+50 with m/44 markings: 17141 and 17144. Does this imply that the S 17 "50" was damaged and other one had to be taken in service?


Cheers,
Kari

PS Found this Swedish forum thread which has picture of the indian emblem:
http://forum.flyghistoria.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1857
The thread seems to partially answer my questions.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi Kari

Many questions and few answers...

What you call Kalixfält was officially known as F 21K. It was initially a small civil field built between 1936 and 1941 and was taken over by the Air Force in 1942.
In 1945 it became a practice field and I guess used rather little since it did not aquire any field number. Most probably back to civil use. I am not sure if this field is the same one as the present small civil field quite close to Kalix center today. Probably not....

The main airfield of F 21 was Kallax, but that of course you know already. A bit confusing with all the places using such similar names....

The Swedish Air Force expanded very rapidly with the outbreak of WW 2 and many of the units also aquired a 5th Division. Due to the great need for especially reconnaissance these Recce Divisions (1 - 3 and 5th) were split up in smaller detachments called Groups (Grupper). I have not studied this topic and I am sure there is much more details in Lennart's books.

I don't know how much data one can find in Krigsarkivet (Swedish War Archives) today with regard to wartime movements, but I would be surprised if such detailed data you are after still remains. Lennart (who you can ask, since he is on this forum now and then) probably knows, since he is a dedicated researcher, while I am not....

Yes, at least two S 17B with F 3 carried the code 50. However if we take the known facts regarding those listed we have
17141 coded F3-4 when it was damaged 25.5.1944
17141 coded F3-50 when it was damaged 14.8.1946

17144 coded F3-19 when it was damaged 19.7.1943
17144 coded F3-50 when it was damaged 23.2.1945

The coding of Swedish aircraft especially during the war is complex and I don't think anyone has a 100% answer what each aircraft did carry at a particular date. But perhaps someone will surprise me still one more time?

Finally when it comes to markings I should keep quiet since I am not that interested in the subject but rather treat it as a curiosity. However I doubt the marking you refer to was official (no I will not re-read Fredin's book ) so how many aircraft that were actually marked that way would probably be a guess. Some Wing Commanders were a lot more tollerant than others....
From what I know Hugo Beckhammar was better than most, so who knows?

Cheers
Stig

[Lennart Andersson]

First: Kalixfors is near Kiruna, Kallax is near Luleå, and Kalix is halfway between Luleå and Haparanda (and Överkalix is north of Kalix on the Kalix River!).

In October 1944 two reconnaissance units from F 3 were based in the area:
4. gruppen F 3 (IV/F 3) was based on Kalix airfield, but now and then dispersed to Kallax and Boden, and I think that they were at Boden between January and November 1944.
5. divisionen F 3 (5/F 3) was set up only during exercises and in emergencies (mobilisation) and from 29 September 1944 it was based at Kalix, but with a temporary deployment to fält 34 Kalixfors between 20 and 28 October. On 6 and 7 November it moved to fält 34.

During this period 5/F 3 had S 17Bs No 20, 48, 49, 50, 61, 62, 63, 64, 66 and 67. I have notes of the attack by two Bf 109s (no damage), AA artillery on 6 October against two aircraft (no damage) and 19 October against two aircraft (light damages). Fighter squadron 3/F 8 at Kallax was normally escorting the S 17Bs with a pair of J 9s (Seversky).

Lennart

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Lennart

Yes, quite a few 'Kalix' and 'Kallax' up there. Wonder if there is a Sami people root somewhere....

So no serial numbers found connecting the codes, not even for those two slightly damaged?

Cheers
Stig

[Lennart Andersson]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

So no serial numbers found connecting the codes, not even for those two slightly damaged?

Well, F 3 aircraft number - serial number connection is much uncharted territory. What I have in this case (late 1944) is:
17131 - 49 (17115 was 49 to 30.6.44)
17144 - probably 50
17146 - probably 62
17133 - probably 63
17159 - probably 66

Lennart