Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 1st June 2020, 18:24
BrianC BrianC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 596
BrianC is on a distinguished road
Fighter Defence Flight, Brize Norton 1940

Hi guys

RAF Brize Norton was bombed on 16 August 1940, following which an unofficial Defence Flight was formed, armed with three cannon Spitfires allocated from 6 MU and instructor pilots from 2 Flying Training School.

Before being disbanded on instructions from Fighter Command, one of the pilots involved wrote "We got 4 enemy aircraft with this makeshift air defence".

Even if this was an exageration, it must be assumed that on four occasions at least, enemy aircraft were engaged. Can we determine dates? And who were the pilots? I've searched documents at TNA in vain.

Instructor pilots with 2 FTS at this time included:

Flg Off Derek Barrois de Sarigny (South African). I've been informed that his logbook may be at RAF Hendon

Plt Off John E. Boulton (to 310 Sqn and KiA)

Flg Off Surry 'Dicky' Bird (who claimed a Ju88 during the BoB)

I hope that one or more of our Battle of Britain experts may be able to add.

Cheers
Keep safe
Brian
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 1st June 2020, 18:46
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 11,187
Chris Goss has a spectacular aura aboutChris Goss has a spectacular aura about
Re: Fighter Defence Flight, Brize Norton 1940

Plt Off Charles 'Alec' Bird was with 4 Ferry Pool and collided with a Ju 88 on 25 Jul 40? Not the same? According to Men of the BofB, Boulton was attached to 310 Sqn from 2 FTS in July 40 and asked to stay on when they became operational, flying his first sortie on 20 Aug 40 only to be killed 9 Sep 40
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 1st June 2020, 22:23
BrianC BrianC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 596
BrianC is on a distinguished road
Re: Fighter Defence Flight, Brize Norton 1940

Hi Chris

Two different Birds!

Cheers
Brian
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 1st June 2020, 23:12
Faenor's Avatar
Faenor Faenor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Czech republic
Posts: 642
Faenor is on a distinguished road
Re: Fighter Defence Flight, Brize Norton 1940

Hi Brian,

check this link, some photos and info about Plt Off John E. Boulton by 310. Squadron

https://fcafa.com/2016/08/26/john-boulton-310-sqn/

Faenor
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 1st June 2020, 23:48
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 11,187
Chris Goss has a spectacular aura aboutChris Goss has a spectacular aura about
Re: Fighter Defence Flight, Brize Norton 1940

Having done some work with Peter Cornwell on forgotten victories of the BofB, claims by Brize Norton did not figure.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 3rd June 2020, 19:08
BrianC BrianC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 596
BrianC is on a distinguished road
Re: Fighter Defence Flight, Brize Norton 1940

Thanks Chris

Nevertheless, there must have been odd operations yet to be 'discovered' or else the published account would have been a complete fabrication!

Perhaps you and Peter didn't dig deep enough!

Cheers
Stay safe
Brian
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 3rd June 2020, 19:56
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 11,187
Chris Goss has a spectacular aura aboutChris Goss has a spectacular aura about
Re: Fighter Defence Flight, Brize Norton 1940

I would disagree-we did try to dig deep enough (in Peter's case over many more years than me) and perhaps the silence from other Forumites would support this? Throughout my researching and writing career, I have come across such claims when, put under a microscope, do not hold true for one reason or another-some details had even been added to logbooks in biro afterwards! Why I cannot say. Surely one station, well away from the action in Kent, Essex, London and Sussex, would have got a glowing accolade for air to air four kills? However, Peter always said that we stand by to be corrected
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 22nd June 2020, 03:22
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 2,352
Franek Grabowski is on a distinguished road
Re: Fighter Defence Flight, Brize Norton 1940

I would say that the silence is caused by another factor - very few researcher ever tried to look into records of training units, and those are often far from perfect. The question is if those claims did happen, and were recorded officially. I can imagine that a training unit, being out of the chain could not file the proper paperwork, or even never attempted to. Being a training unit they couldhave considered it a kind of private business, which could cause an anger of Fighter Command. They had to train pilots, and not to risk lives of precious instructors.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 22nd June 2020, 04:54
bearoutwest bearoutwest is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 401
bearoutwest is on a distinguished road
Re: Fighter Defence Flight, Brize Norton 1940

If it's an obscure mention, it may just get lost in the reams of data and it may require pot luck to find.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...t=Spitfire+OTU

Here's an internal link to a thread discussing No7 OTU on Spitfires, using inherited cannon-armed Spitfire Is (ex-19 Sqn, IIRC). This "defence flight"was based at Hawarden (covering Liverpool area) and was involved in a number of combats and claims.

Brize Norton does seem a little out of harm's-way, though. 2 FTS and 6MU, I'm guessing Spitfires from the MU and a mixture of pilots from both. Would it be easier to trace the cannon-Spits? Far fewer of them and see what time-line they were at 6MU?

Thinking out aloud,
...geoff
__________________
- converting fuel into noise.

Last edited by bearoutwest; 22nd June 2020 at 05:00. Reason: Geographically-challenged in the UK
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 22nd June 2020, 09:03
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 11,187
Chris Goss has a spectacular aura aboutChris Goss has a spectacular aura about
Re: Fighter Defence Flight, Brize Norton 1940

I have researched this subject & wrote about it for Britain at War. I identified all claims & losses and apart from the collision between an Anson & a He 111 nothing else was Brize connected or related
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
List of US Air Force stations in UK WW2 Bruce Dennis Allied and Soviet Air Forces 7 4th December 2018 14:27
KGr 100 flight on 2 March 1940 to Orkneys Islands Adriano Baumgartner Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 29th June 2017 16:43
610 Sqn 26 Aug 40 Chris Goss Allied and Soviet Air Forces 11 18th August 2013 04:05
Fighter pilots' guts Hawk-Eye Allied and Soviet Air Forces 44 8th April 2005 15:25
Fighter pilots chicken? Hawk-Eye Allied and Soviet Air Forces 7 26th March 2005 14:17


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:29.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net