Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 8th December 2006, 21:56
Nokose's Avatar
Nokose Nokose is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,549
Nokose is on a distinguished road
Wolfgang Spate's 1941 claims?

Can anyone tell me about Wolfgang Spate's 1941 claims while serving with JG54. I looked through Tony Wood's list and found none. Hopefully someone with one of J. Prien's books or some other source can provide it.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 8th December 2006, 22:05
Boris Ciglic's Avatar
Boris Ciglic Boris Ciglic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Alba Grecca
Posts: 307
Boris Ciglic is on a distinguished road
Re: Wolfgang Spate's 1941 claims?

His first claim was against RYAF 8. Bomber Wing Blenheim at cca.12.00 on 6 April 1941 near Pecs in Hungary. Five Blenheims were claimed by Luftwaffe fighters and exactly five were lost.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 9th December 2006, 11:20
Csaba B. Stenge's Avatar
Csaba B. Stenge Csaba B. Stenge is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hungary
Posts: 579
Csaba B. Stenge
Re: Wolfgang Spate's 1941 claims?

Well, if you compare the Bf 109 and Bf 110 claims with the crashing places and with the Hungarian AA claims, it is not so evident (at least, to me...)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 9th December 2006, 11:44
Boris Ciglic's Avatar
Boris Ciglic Boris Ciglic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Alba Grecca
Posts: 307
Boris Ciglic is on a distinguished road
Re: Wolfgang Spate's 1941 claims?

well, true, I forgot about the Hungarian AA claims. Two were claimed by Bf 109's and three by Bf 110's. What did the AA gunners report?
Boris
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 9th December 2006, 12:40
Evgeny Velichko's Avatar
Evgeny Velichko Evgeny Velichko is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Stalingrad
Posts: 1,240
Evgeny Velichko is on a distinguished road
Re: Wolfgang Spate's 1941 claims?

Hi! Here is info that might help You:

7-4-1941 0:00:00,"Ltn.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","Blenheim","Fьnfkirchen","12.00"," 1st"," 173","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
23-6-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","SB-2","NE Insterburg","10.07"," 2"," 200","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
23-6-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","SB-2","NE Insterburg","10.07"," 3"," 202","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
27-6-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","SB-2","E. Dьnaburg","13.35"," 4"," 211","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
27-6-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","SB-2","E. Dьnaburg","13.50"," 5"," 215","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
30-6-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","DB-3","E. Kreuzburg","06.47"," 6"," 228","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
30-6-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","DB-3","N. Dьnaburg","12.30"," 7"," 241","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
30-6-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","DB-3","W. Dьnaburg","14.50"," 8"," 255","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
2-7-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","DB-3","E. Tschalkino","18.30"," 9"," 282","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
6-7-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-16","ESE Pleskau","10.45"," 10"," 307","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
7-7-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","DB-3","NE Ostrow","18.55"," 11"," 324","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
8-7-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","Porchow","11.15"," 12"," 332","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
17-7-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-153","NW Љoltzy","06.30"," 13"," 345","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
17-7-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","DB-3","E. Samra-See","20.30"," 14"," 350","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
19-7-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","DB-3","SW Mschinskaja","17.30"," 15"," 360","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
19-7-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","NE Wloschowo","19.08"," 16"," 362","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
25-7-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","DB-3","N. Werest","07.58"," 17"," 386","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
7-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","W. Korpowa","19.48"," 18"," 406","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
7-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","N. Korpowa","19.51"," 19"," 408","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
10-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","NE Poretschje","10.11"," 20"," 413","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
11-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-16","NE Poretschje","06.07"," 21"," 418","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
12-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","Kiepiek","17.50"," 22"," 433","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
16-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","NE Krasnogwardeisk","19.00"," 23"," 457","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
21-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","NE Puschkin","12.57"," 24"," 485","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
25-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-153","Kuplja","13.40"," 25"," 496","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
26-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-16","E. Poretschje","05.45"," 26"," 497","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
26-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-16","E. Poretschje","05.48"," 27"," 498","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
3-9-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","N. Michelowka","18.30"," 28"," 505","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
9-9-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","Leningrad","16.45"," 29"," 523","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
10-9-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","S. Leningrad","11.20"," 30"," 524","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
12-9-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","N. Krasnoje-Selo","13.00"," 31"," 536","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
19-9-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","NE Leningrad","09.20"," 32"," 557","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
21-9-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","S. Putilowo","11.50"," 33"," 559","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
21-9-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","N. Wswelowshski","17.30"," 34"," 560","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
23-9-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-16","NE Leningrad","08.40"," 35"," 563","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
26-9-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","Shicharjewo","08.35"," 36"," 571","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
26-9-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","N. Parogi","11.20"," 37"," 573","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
27-9-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","Ljubnitza","11.00"," 38"," 574","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
1-10-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","Polnowo","17.00"," 39"," 580","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
1-10-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","Polnowo","17.02"," 40"," 581","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
2-10-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","Ljubnitza","08.00"," 41"," 584","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
2-10-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","E. Waldai","08.12"," 42"," 586","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
2-10-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","E. Seliger See","14.30"," 43"," 591","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
2-10-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","E. Seliger See","14.35"," 44"," 593","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
7-10-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-26","SE Borowitschi","07.22"," 46"," 600","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
5-10-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-16","SE Waldai","08.10"," 45"," 594","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
7-10-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-18","NE Krestzy","17.10"," 47"," 604","yes","Prien/Bock",,,
10-10-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Wolfgang","Spдte","5.","JG 54","I-26","Jam Chotilowo","10.17"," 48"," 609","yes","Prien/Bock",,,

P.S.
I-18 - MiG-3
I-26 - Yak-1
__________________
My articles on Warspot.ru: Otto Kittel, Erich Rudorffer, Emil Lang (work in process).
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 9th December 2006, 22:21
Nokose's Avatar
Nokose Nokose is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,549
Nokose is on a distinguished road
Re: Wolfgang Spate's 1941 claims?

Eugen, Thanks for the list of to Oct41. I'll have to wait until a time J. Prien's book comes out in english to get the rest. I did see one of the claims that he wrote about that maybe Andrey Dikov can give some info on. His 28th kill on 03.09.41 he thought the pilot might have been a VVS "Ace". He stated that this "I-18" pilot jumped the 4 BF-109's that he was in formation with and was hard to get behind. He said that the pilot lured him into the russian flak over Leningrad to get him shot off his 6 but hung so close they couldn't shoot until after he shot him down. He mentioned he was still having dreams about it months later.

Last edited by Nokose; 11th December 2006 at 17:30. Reason: wrong number of BF109's
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11th December 2006, 14:05
Andrey Dikov Andrey Dikov is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: St.Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 98
Andrey Dikov
Re: Wolfgang Spate's 1941 claims?

In course of research I've got an impression that Spate should have good real confirmation ratio (I had no goal to check him personally neither I checked all of his claims, but those ones I had a chance "to investigate" seemed rather reasonable).

As for LW pilots in 41 near Leningrad, who seems were more "reasonable" comparing with their comrades, I could recall Kageneck, Beisswenger, Schilling, Zweigart (extremely honest pilot!), Hannig, Spaete, Broennle, Ademeit and probably Scholz and Pohs.

On the other hand: Kempf, Ostermann, Phillip.
__________________
Best regards,

Andrey
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11th December 2006, 16:00
Nikita Egorov Nikita Egorov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Moscow
Posts: 427
Nikita Egorov
Re: Wolfgang Spate's 1941 claims?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey Dikov View Post
On the other hand: Kempf, Ostermann, Phillip.
Privet, Andrey!

You forgot to mention Nowotny.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11th December 2006, 16:38
Andrey Dikov Andrey Dikov is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: St.Petersburg, Russia
Posts: 98
Andrey Dikov
Re: Wolfgang Spate's 1941 claims?

I already mentioned Nowotny as unreliable 'source' of claims in comparison with very strict Lt. Henkemeier in one of my recent previous posts on TOCH. They served both and simultaneously in 1.(Erg)/JG 54 and differed from each other obviously regarding claims.

Yes, only 1 and probably another one of his very first 10 claims can be confirmed by real losses (and in this case I can say that I researched every of his and Henkemeier's claims in detail).

Unfortunately Henkemeier perished in such pity circumstances. But probably fortunately for VVS keeping in mind his confirmation ratio.
__________________
Best regards,

Andrey
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11th December 2006, 18:24
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 2,117
Franek Grabowski
Re: Wolfgang Spate's 1941 claims?

Andrey
Funny you mention Adameit, because on the old forum was posted an account of JG54 veteran, who claimed that Adameit claimed victories of his young wingmen as his very own.
Otherwise, well, there are no German combat reports for most cases, so how can we know this interpretation is correct?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Percentage of Verifiable Victories of Various Aces –Updates & Recommendations Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 25 9th March 2010 02:39
Percentage of Verifiable Victories of Various Aces –Updates & Recommendations Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 30th September 2006 09:05
German Claims for 13 Dec 1941 Buz Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 3 18th August 2005 15:27
MTO Claims 1941 by JG 27 fireship Allied and Soviet Air Forces 2 25th June 2005 22:04
Claims identites Adam Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 27th May 2005 00:05


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:00.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net