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Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation Please use this forum to discuss Military and Naval Aviation before the Second World War.

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  #21  
Old 19th March 2020, 13:10
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Buckeye30 Buckeye30 is offline
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Re: Photo Nieuport

Sorry Clint don't know of any on the net; Ray Rimell did a Windsock "Datafile Special" on Nieuports so probably had a listing (his Fokker and Albatros Datafiles did).
For future reference these are RFC Nieuports ( not RNAS though); "Type 20" was developed from the 12 and was very similar ( 21 went to RFC).


http://www.airhistory.org.uk/rfc/Nieuport.html


Squadron assignments....
Type 10. 1,39,45,46 Sqns.
Type 12. 45,46,,84,10(Naval) Sqns.
Type 20. 1,45,46 Sqns.
Some Nie.12s were transferred from RNAS to 46 Sqn. (20 I think).
The RNAS called them "Nieuport 2-seaters".
Regards
Nick
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  #22  
Old 22nd March 2020, 15:55
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Photo Nieuport

Hello Nick,


Thanks for the info I've ordered both volumes of the datafile specials.


Additionally currently on ebay a photo of a line up of Nieuports including N1590 and N1420? currently at:


https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Aviation-pho...QAAOSw0yJed2iX


captioned as Nieuport 17, but is that a 16 I see low down on the rudder of the foremost machine?


Regards,


Clint
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  #23  
Old 22nd March 2020, 18:00
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Buckeye30 Buckeye30 is offline
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Re: Photo Nieuport

Hi Clint. It's N1390 ( Type 16), this photo shows the difference between "3" and "5".



https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/media/...-1916-2.26683/


Could be N.124 at Bar-le-Sec in 1916, the Type 11 marked "RUM" looks like Laurence Rumsey's N.1290. Sometimes the type number was marked low on the rudder very small but not often I think (sometimes on 24s and 27s).
Wasn't N.1420 the captured Nieuport marked "V" you posted not long ago (Esc.103)? Maybe it's 1120.
I did some more digging and the 2 Windsock Specials cover the single-seaters, the Nieuport 10/12 were in a normal Datafile, no.68; maybe on e-bay but pricey now I reckon. Hope I didn't mislead you.

Nick
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  #24  
Old 22nd March 2020, 18:11
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Photo Nieuport

Hell Nick,


Thanks for the information and corrections. My first thought was actually N1120, but I thought I saw the bar of the 4. I guess not.


Fear not about the WDF specials its all good information and at the same time I've ordered Les Freres Nieuport et leurs Avions by the Pommier brothers. Hopefully it will be helful.


Regards,


Clint
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  #25  
Old 22nd March 2020, 18:14
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Photo Nieuport

Clint (and Nick)

As I very thoroughly have shown before, I have a great difficulty in seing any difference between various Nieuport single-seaters and two-seaters, I don't believe my help is very useful, but here we go...

I would say each serial visible have two basic interpretations
N1590 and N1420 or
N1390 and N1120

Taking them one by one
N1120 seems to be either a type 11 or 12
N1390 seems to be a type 16
N1420 is identified as a type 17
N1590 seems to be a type 17

Cheers
Stig
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  #26  
Old 23rd March 2020, 15:44
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Buckeye30 Buckeye30 is offline
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Re: Photo Nieuport

Hi Stig. The 11s, 16s and 17s can be identified by a couple of details....
Type 11 "horseshoe" cowling, no headrest.
Type 16 " " , headrest added.
Type 17 full cowling, plus headrest.
.................................................. .

The first 3 here are 16s, the rest 11s, all camouflaged with unpainted cowlings.
N.1120 is a Nie.16; N.1420 was Type 17, definitely Esc.N.103 and captured. N.1590 would be Type 17.

"RUM" is N.1290 Type 11 ( Rumsey).
"R" probably Kiffen Rockwell N.1116 Type 11.
7th aircraft with "X" may be N.1585 Type 11 Didier Masson.
Lafayette / N.124 commonly used pilot's initials ( "C" =Elliot Cowdin, "P" = Norman Prince, "RL" = Lufbery). Sometimes repeated on top wing ( "RUM" had white chevron).
The Type 16s were "nose-heavy" due to the bigger engine ( 110 from 80 hp.).

Nick
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  #27  
Old 23rd March 2020, 20:52
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Photo Nieuport

Thanks Nick

Yes I know some of the basics, but what does one do when the cowling is not visible?
How 'bout the model 24bis and the trainer versions in the 80 range?
No I still don't like designs with such subtle differences.

Also thanks for the ID of the aircraft we are looking at.
Somewhere I think I have seen this photo before, but it would take ages to find it (if I really do have it.....)

Good to have a couple of Aces around, when Clint is working overtime to find interesting WW I photos.
Everyone's efforts are highly appreciated by me!!

Cheers
Stig

PS: Since you identified the third aircraft as a model 16 (headrest) it cannot be N1116 which you say was a model 11, even if this one also carries a 'R'.

Last edited by Stig Jarlevik; 23rd March 2020 at 21:20. Reason: Added PS
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  #28  
Old 24th March 2020, 17:59
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Re: Photo Nieuport

Oops! I got confused, blame my age.
N1116 was an 11 but flown by Norman Prince as "P"; Rockwell's "R" was also an 11 but was N1454 (May 1916).
The "R" shown here is a 16 with a 4-digit number - possibly Adj. ROBERT Rockwell but the letter is a different style to Kiffin's.


The Nieuport 80s had an 80hp so hard to tell from the other 2-seaters if you don't know the serial. Some went to the USAS training bases, most Nieuports would have gone to the big general flying fields ( there were 15) at Issoudun. The others were...
Tours and Chatillon-sur-Seine (observers).
Clermont-Ferrand ( bombing)
St. Jean de Monte (aerial gunners)
Souse, Mencon and Coetquidan ( artillery ranging).
The single-seaters had different chord cowlings depending on the engine size but not always obvious.
Nick
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  #29  
Old 24th March 2020, 18:28
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Photo Nieuport

Thanks for the update Nick

Can I also say "welcome to the Club", with that meaning those of us who also been there and done that... "darn mistake"...

Good to know I am not the only one....

Cheers
Stig
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  #30  
Old 25th March 2020, 20:23
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: A Russian Nieuport

Hello,


Today on ebay at:



https://www.ebay.com/itm/Russia-Mosc...8AAOSwvTpaJNjH


is a photo of a Russian Nieuport


Regards,


Clint
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