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  #51  
Old 15th January 2007, 14:36
NBE1942 NBE1942 is offline
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski View Post
Hi
A Division of Hurricanes in the Battle of Stalingrad.

In early June 1942 a whole fighter division equipped entirely with Hurricanes, 235 IAD became part of 8 VA (8th Air Army). The unit was commanded by Lt. Col. I. D. Podgomiy. It comprised 46, 191, and 436 IAP. On 25 June it was joined by 180 IAP equipped with 20 Hurricanes. All those regiments, apart from 191 IAP, have been trained at Ivanovo. In order to facilitate rapid conversion to the British equipment, 3 British pilots and 16 fitters were present at Ivanovo. When moving to the front line, the division was largely equipped with aircraft fitted with the Soviet armament, or Mk IIC aircraft. In heavy fighting, with constantly changing unprepared landing grounds, the Hurricanes started to wear out rapidly. For example 436 IAP changed airfields no less than 12 times within 2 months. On 22 July 1942 two surviving Hurricanes of 191 IAP were handed over to a neighbouring unit. Two days later also 46 and 180 IAP were sent back for replenishment at Ivanovo. All the surviving and serviceable aircraft were assembled in 436 IAP. On 1 August 1942 8 VA had a total of 11 Hurricanes, of which only 3 combat-ready. During the rapid retreat of the Russians, all remaining Hurricanes were destroyed by own ground personnel at Kalch-on-Don airfield.
Hm... The only VVS unit equipped with Hurricanes which took part in the Stalingrad battle was 436 IAP. In early stages on the end of July 1942. More Hurricanes were in PVO units of 102 IAD (IAP OO, 651 IAP etc.) during Stalingrad battle. They were almost obliterated till September. In July 1942 the whole division of Hurricanes comprised of 4 IAP, 287 IAP, 831 IAP and 832 IAP entered 2 VA and during the whole month it was destroyed in the fierce battles over Voronezh-Semlyansk. In summer 1942 in the central combat zone there were two regiments on Hurricanes: 157 IAP and 179 IAP. One regiment - 485 IAP on the North-western front. That is all for Hurricanes in summer-autumn 1942, exept rapid two-month tour of duty with 3 GIAP VVS KBF and remaining PVO units such as 628 IAP...
Hurricane almost finished it's combat career on the Eastern front (exept North Pole) on November 1942...
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  #52  
Old 16th January 2007, 16:13
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?

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Hm... The only VVS unit equipped with Hurricanes which took part in the Stalingrad battle was 436 IAP. In early stages on the end of July 1942. More Hurricanes were in PVO units of 102 IAD (IAP OO, 651 IAP etc.) during Stalingrad battle. They were almost obliterated till September. In July 1942 the whole division of Hurricanes comprised of 4 IAP, 287 IAP, 831 IAP and 832 IAP entered 2 VA and during the whole month it was destroyed in the fierce battles over Voronezh-Semlyansk. In summer 1942 in the central combat zone there were two regiments on Hurricanes: 157 IAP and 179 IAP. One regiment - 485 IAP on the North-western front. That is all for Hurricanes in summer-autumn 1942, exept rapid two-month tour of duty with 3 GIAP VVS KBF and remaining PVO units such as 628 IAP...
Hurricane almost finished it's combat career on the Eastern front (exept North Pole) on November 1942...

Hm , then we have a small problem of credibility of pilot like Dolguszin from 180. IAP, he fought on Hurricanes and claimed 4-5 enemy planes on this type during the battle of Stalingrad - first phase of this battle far from the city and not over (it was on podstupiach Stalingrada). See his memories in MIR Aviacji of 1.1992. His regiment had given its few survived Hurricanes directly to 436 IAP. So pilot Dolguszin (HSU in 1942) is accoriding you a lier (?). 180. IAP sould not to have Hurricanes (?), and he had created his memories as pure fanthasy?

The same with 191 IAP, which fought over Novyj Oskol for example and claimed victories over German planes being equippted with Hurricanes see materials written by Kotienikov or Roman (both from Russia).
3-ed - there is a ghoust of commander sub-colonel Podgornovo of 235. IAD of 8. VA.

Hm, yes your opinion look then very, very strange.

Summary
Me and several others peoples are making huge errors and faults writing about "ghoust division", which according you never existed and fought in 1942 with Hurricanes or you are wrong.
There is nothing between?
Very interesting!


Regards,
Mirek Wawrzynski
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  #53  
Old 16th January 2007, 16:34
NBE1942 NBE1942 is offline
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?

Everything is ok with Dolgushin and his memoirs. The official date of beginning for Stalingrad battle is July 17, 1942. To this date none of the mentioned regiments were combat ready exept 436 IAP. Thus, we do not have any whole equipped Hurricane division during the Stalingrad battle. Moreover, I should say that 235 IAD participated in the Stalingrad battle with regiments mostly equipped with Lagg-3s such as 13 IAP and 156 IAP.
I do not deny the existance of 235 IAD and Col. Podgornyi as its commander, but be precise with facts...
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  #54  
Old 16th January 2007, 18:45
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Frankly, look at 1-st yourself with precise remarks!

OK
I know that not whole division was send just in one time into the battle but partialy. More to many times is mentioned that: 46, 180, 191, 436 of 235. IAD were equipted in Hurricanes and were in 235. IAD structure, you may see and check the link in Russian:

http://www.allaces.ru/cgi-bin/s2.cgi...ruct/p_all.dat

There is mentioned above regiments and used by them Hurricanes in the "Battle of Stalingarad" - first period about VI-IX 42.

Sorry but you still "accused/sustein" to many peoples about "blidness" or "stupidness".
More info of 235. IAD
"13.06.42 г. вошла в состав 8-й ВА.
С 10.09.1942 г. входила в состав 1-го иак."

And about 46. IAP
"Летом 1942 г. входил в состав 235-й иад.
К концу августа 1942 г. после напряженных боев на сталинградском направлении в полку осталось 4-5 "Харрикейнов."

There you may fine more infor about next 3 regiments, and you still sustain your opinion about Łagg-3 in others unit. Of course there were earlier or later. In my opinion 235. IAD had different regiments including 4 ones on Hurricanes, which during the battle were used and withdrawn for re-supply and new one were put into the service. But your 1 post denaied any rights for 4 regiments being in comabts in Stalingard battle on Hurricanes - this is strange!

You still want to makes from some authors an idiots - funy?

Regards
mw

PS
See what have you personaly written, it is great precise: The only VVS unit equipped with Hurricanes which took part in the Stalingrad battle was 436 IAP.

You wants from me to be precise, but your claims are not precise and more you do not present true statmens making a mass anyway!
Sorry, frankly you do not know what you are writing about!
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  #55  
Old 17th January 2007, 09:33
NBE1942 NBE1942 is offline
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?

LOL.

I know that not whole division was send just in one time into the battle but partialy. More to many times is mentioned that: 46, 180, 191, 436 of 235. IAD were equipted in Hurricanes and were in 235. IAD structure, you may see and check the link in Russian:

I know this link. That is true.

There is mentioned above regiments and used by them Hurricanes in the "Battle of Stalingarad" - first period about VI-IX 42.

Sorry but you still "accused/sustein" to many peoples about "blidness" or "stupidness".
More info of 235. IAD
"13.06.42 г. вошла в состав 8-й ВА.
С 10.09.1942 г. входила в состав 1-го иак."

And about 46. IAP
"Летом 1942 г. входил в состав 235-й иад.
К концу августа 1942 г. после напряженных боев на сталинградском направлении в полку осталось 4-5 "Харрикейнов."


I know Vasiliy Kharin, whose site it is, personally. Unfortunatelly, his sources are mostly based on the open records (memoirs, history books and etc.). They are not so reliable as we wish to be. Note the date of entering 235 IAD into 8 VA - June 13, 1942. This is the battle of Kharkov. For the past two months 235 IAD was completely destroyed in the battles of Kharkov, Voronezh and other retreat operations. Thus, none of the above-mentioned regiments flew any combat sorties in the Stalingrad battle exept 436 IAP. All Hurricanes were accumulated in 436 IAP, which conducted combat duties for the first several days of Stalingrad battle from July 17 till July 26. On July 22, 1942 265 IAD was withdrawn from 8 VA and its regiments: 13 IAP and 156 IAP were handled to 235 IAD. From this time Hurricanes of 436 IAP made few combat sorties and soon were sent to rest and refit.
BTW, from what source you draw a conclusion that 1 IAK ever participated in Stalingrad battle? 235 IAD was in 1 IAK for a short time in september-october 1942. It was equipped with La-5s and was far away from Stalingrad...

К концу августа 1942 г. после напряженных боев на сталинградском направлении в полку осталось 4-5 "Харрикейнов."

By the end of August 46 IAP was already withdrawn from the frontline.

But your 1 post denaied any rights for 4 regiments being in comabts in Stalingard battle on Hurricanes - this is strange!

I do not deny. I simply know that from operational documents of 235 IAD.

See what have you personaly written, it is great precise: The only VVS unit equipped with Hurricanes which took part in the Stalingrad battle was 436 IAP.

Key words here are "Stalingrad battle". Other regiments did not live long to be combat ready for the Stalingrad battle.
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  #56  
Old 17th January 2007, 21:40
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?

Talking of Hurricanes in the Stalingrad Battle, on January 20, 1943 two Rumanian Bf 109E pilots claimed a Hurricane each over Kudinov.

Can the victims' identity be established?
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  #57  
Old 18th January 2007, 10:59
NBE1942 NBE1942 is offline
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?

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Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád View Post
Talking of Hurricanes in the Stalingrad Battle, on January 20, 1943 two Rumanian Bf 109E pilots claimed a Hurricane each over Kudinov.

Can the victims' identity be established?
We need to check where is Kudinov. I doubt that this could be Hurricanes as non of the units were equipped with them in VAs around Stalingrad.
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  #58  
Old 18th January 2007, 16:18
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?

Key words here are "Stalingrad battle". Other regiments did not live long to be combat ready for the Stalingrad battle.

Yes it is the key word, I think the day of begining of "Fall Blau" was the begining of operation for "capturing" Stalingrad (28 VI 1942). The first phase to capture Voronez, nextr to Don river (Don's bend) and later towards Stalingard. For me this is the period of begining the battle + phases. So it was the first pahse battle for Stalingard of capturing in Novyj Oskol railway stattion a few Hurricanes (2 at least) by German + Hungarian troops + 1 LaGG-3 more. Planes were damaged after belly landing.

Charkov's battle was earlier, a little bit.

С 10.09.1942 г. входила в состав 1-го иак."
This info comming from Vasiliy Kharin's site.

Regards
MirekW
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  #59  
Old 18th January 2007, 18:48
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NBE1942 View Post
We need to check where is Kudinov.
Mapquest found four Kudinov in Russia, all of them located south-west of Stalingrad:
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp...=&city=kudinov
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  #60  
Old 18th January 2007, 19:31
Andrey Dikov Andrey Dikov is offline
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Re: Soviet Hurricanes - where, when, ...?

>Yes it is the key word, I think the day of begining of "Fall Blau" was the begining of operation for "capturing" Stalingrad (28 VI 1942). The first phase to capture Voronez, nextr to Don river (Don's bend) and later towards Stalingard. For me this is the period of begining the battle + phases.

You're just completely wrong. If you want to refer to German terms, then Blau is not a Battle for Stalingrad at all. That's the plan of German summer offensive on south sector in general, including drive to Voronezh and two main offensives - to Stalingrad and Caucasus.

So, the planes which took part in combats for Voronezh and Northern Caucasus can't be regarded as taking part in Stalingrad battle.

If you will use Soveit terms, then there was a Voronezh-Voroshilovgrad Strategic Defensive Operation (28.6 - 24.7.42), Stalingrad Strategic Defensive Operation (17.7-18.11.42) and North-Caucasian Strategic Defensive Operation (25.7-31.12.42).

So, there were no those Hurricanes near Stalingrad and they didn't take part in Battle for Stalingrad.

And learn to teach on your mistakes and admit your mistakes, don't dispute by any cost.

If the researcher, who directly worked in TsAMO with the documents of that IAD, tells you something, just obey the circumstances. Because your own knowledge about subject of discussion (Soviet Hurricanes) is rather poor, doesn't matter you wrote some article.
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