Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 28th October 2008, 13:34
Brian Brian is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
Posts: 3,972
Brian is on a distinguished road
GC 1/145 10 June 1940

Hi guys

According to 'Battle of France Then and Now', GC 1/145 mistakenly shot down two Battles of 103 Squadron (Thomas and Kelly). circa 1130.

There is no mention of this incident in Belcarz's 'GC 1/145 in France 1940', although it seems that Laguna and Lukaszewicz possibly claimed Bf109s (none were lost). In return, 1/JG3 did shoot down two Caudron 714s of GC 1/145. circa 0845. So it would seem that these two operations were unrelated, timewise.

Therefore, who shot down the two Battles?

Cheers
Brian
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 28th October 2008, 19:53
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 2,352
Franek Grabowski is on a distinguished road
Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940

GC I/145 flew two missions on the day, during the first Łaguna was credited with one Me 109, while Łukaszewicz was not, he mentioned it only in his later account. The second, at 1040 was a scramble to intercept German raid coming from Chartres. No enemy was encountered, and I have seen no mention of the incident in any Polish source.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 28th October 2008, 20:39
Iain Torrance Iain Torrance is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 67
Iain Torrance is on a distinguished road
Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940

103 ORB records the incident as follows for that day:

Day operations by Squadron from Echimines. One aircraft lost with crew as follows:- P/O. Thomas. L.A.C. Bligh

Aircraft flown by F/O. Kelly on operations severely damaged by Hurricane aircraft who attacked without challenge when aircraft en route to target. F/O. Kelly compelled to return to base.

Be interested in the evidence for not being a Hurricane friendly fire.

Best

Iain
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 28th October 2008, 20:39
robert robert is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 1,890
robert is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940

Hi,

during first mission (between 08.30 and 09.00 a.m. or 08.00-08.45 a.m.) they claimed 2 Do 17 (sure) and two Bf109 (one sure, one probable).
During second mission (10.40-12.00) on the way back after combat air patrol (following pilots took part in this mission: Cne Frey and Wczelik, Lt.Kowalski, Wilczynski, Czerwinski; S/Lt. Czerniak, Jaugsch, Glowczynski; Sgt. Palak; as well as C/C Parafinski and Zielinski) they spotted unknown plane and dived to recognize it. They were shelled by this plane and also opened fire before they recognized that this is a British plane - so it could be Fairey Battle from 103 Sqn.

Regards

Robert
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 28th October 2008, 22:04
Brian Brian is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
Posts: 3,972
Brian is on a distinguished road
Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940

Thanks guys

So far we have the possibilty that a Hurricane accounted for Kelly's aircraft and one of eleven Polish pilots for Thomas' aircraft. Who of the latter opened fire? And who might the Hurricane pilot have been?

Cheers
Brian
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 29th October 2008, 01:46
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 2,352
Franek Grabowski is on a distinguished road
Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940

Brian
As I said, I am not awared of any Polish source, but will ask a friend about it. He is busy at the moment, so it may take a while.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 29th October 2008, 09:28
robert robert is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 1,890
robert is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940

Hi Brian,

no claims were made after the second sortie.

Regards

Robert
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 29th October 2008, 13:00
Brian Brian is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
Posts: 3,972
Brian is on a distinguished road
Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940

Hi Franek and Robert

Of course, as I mentioned, the information that GC 1/145 was responsible for the attacks on both Battles comes from Peter Cornwell's excellent TBFTN - so there must be an official record that Peter was able to access.

Perhaps Peter will be able to confirm his source?

The mystery continues .........

Cheers
Brian
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 31st October 2008, 23:45
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,809
Stig Jarlevik will become famous soon enough
Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940

Brian

If you look into Arnaud Gillet's book Les Victoires de l'Aviation de chasse Francaise Vol III you get a totally different interpretation of this combat.

As always, after so many years, I guess it is hard to relate either to written documents or surviving records.

Pilots in those days could claim almost anything and in the heat of combat who could blame them. Ever been shot at in a war situation yourself or up in a fast aeroplane in a combat situation? Anyone who has knows the difficulty of getting the facts right, so interpretation is very much the historians playground....in our easy chairs....

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 1st November 2008, 22:25
Brian Brian is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
Posts: 3,972
Brian is on a distinguished road
Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940

Hi Stig

I haven't a copy of Gillet's book - would you kindly advise his version of this event?

Cheers
Brian
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Friendly fire WWII Brian Allied and Soviet Air Forces 803 8th July 2023 16:47
Three Lw losses June 1940 Brian Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 8 6th September 2008 20:43
French Airforce on English soil May & June 1940... Michi. Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 29th August 2006 17:45
He111 shot down on 15 june 1940 Bertrand H Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 3 9th February 2006 00:29
Fighter pilots' guts Hawk-Eye Allied and Soviet Air Forces 44 8th April 2005 15:25


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net