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  #1  
Old 17th January 2006, 18:03
Andrey Dikov Andrey Dikov is offline
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JG 54 near Leningrad in August, 1942

Could anyone shed some light?

When did 1./JG 54 left Peta:jarvi base on Karelian isthmus (Finnland)?

Is it true it was replaced there by 7./JG 54 after its departure?

Am I right 7 staffel was alone near Leningrad before Soviet assault commenced on Aug, 27?

Where the Stab III./JG 54 stationed in August? Together with 8. and 9.?
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Andrey
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Old 18th January 2006, 15:07
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Juha Juha is offline
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Re: JG 54 near Leningrad in August, 1942

Hello Andrey,
according to Finnish literature there were 15 Bf 109Fs of Osasto Philipp (Detachment Philipp), other name Kommando I./JG 54, operating from Petäjärvi and from Mensuvaara from July to Oct. 42. From Hannu Valtonen’s Luftwaffen pohjoinen sivusta (1997) p. 218 “According to photos the Det. was made from 1./JG 54. First Ju 52s carrying the ground echelon began to arrive on the evening of 28.6.42…” The last sorties mentioned in the book were flown on 29.10.

But there is also photos on planes of a Rotte from 7./JG 54 at Utti a/f on 23 June 42, one of the planes is that of 7th Staffel leader Oblt. Friedrich Rupp. I don’t know if this Rotte had anything to do with Kommando I./JG 54. Possible not. My very uninformed quess is that the Rotte was only visiting at Utti, maybe because something special at Kotka harbour.

Other sources
Hannu Valtonen’s Luftwaffe-kuvasto. Saksan ilmavoimat Suomessa ja Pohjois-Norjassa 1941-1944 (1998)
Kalevi Keskinen’s and Kari Stenman’s Saksalaiset koneet Suomessa 1939-1945 (1998)

BTW I’m sorry to learn that Vlad Antipov was not mentioned in that article in AIR MAG HORS-SÉRIE No.3. You Russian researchers have much to give to us westerners, not least because Your unique archival material. Hopefully AIR MAG HORS-SÉRIEwill correct this omission.

BTW2 I have heard rumours that the archives of a number of IAPs cannot be found nowadays because they were mislaid after the war or destroyed during the war. Do You know if there is any truth in these rumours?

Juha
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  #3  
Old 18th January 2006, 16:25
Andrey Dikov Andrey Dikov is offline
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Re: JG 54 near Leningrad in August, 1942

Hello Juha,

>according to Finnish literature there were 15 Bf 109Fs of Osasto Philipp (Detachment Philipp), other name Kommando I./JG 54, operating from Petäjärvi and from Mensuvaara from July to Oct. 42. From Hannu Valtonen’s Luftwaffen pohjoinen sivusta (1997) p. 218 “According to photos the Det. was made from 1./JG 54. First Ju 52s carrying the ground echelon began to arrive on the evening of 28.6.42…” The last sorties mentioned in the book were flown on 29.10.

Yes, thank you! I know the general story.

In fact I researched the combats over Ladoga lake in August-42 according to Tony Wood's claims list. I've found several events, when 1.Staffel Messerschmitts successfully intercepted Baltic Fleet AF Pe-2 long-range recce a/c over the lake and northern shore.

Around August 15-20, the claims of 1. had finished. And I've found for sure that on August, 24 four 7.Staffel pilots took part in combat with Soviet formation over Ladoga lake together with LeLv 26 Fiats.

I'd like to know, whether 7th had replaced the 1st in Peta:jarvi (it seems so), or it acted from Krasnogwardejsk.

And there's another case, with a combat of August, 18 over Gulf of Finnland - most famous for Finns as "16 vs. 60". I suppose 4 Germans also took part in it, but on initial phase, when LeLv 24 was just on the ground. I think it could be only 7./JG 54, which, perhaps, stationed on some of foremost airfields - Kerstowo or Kotly.

>But there is also photos on planes of a Rotte from 7./JG 54 at Utti a/f on 23 June 42, one of the planes is that of 7th Staffel leader Oblt. Friedrich Rupp. I don’t know if this Rotte had anything to do with Kommando I./JG 54. Possible not. My very uninformed quess is that the Rotte was only visiting at Utti, maybe because something special at Kotka harbour.

Could it be connected with Hitler's mission?


>Other sources
Hannu Valtonen’s Luftwaffe-kuvasto. Saksan ilmavoimat Suomessa ja Pohjois-Norjassa 1941-1944 (1998)
Kalevi Keskinen’s and Kari Stenman’s Saksalaiset koneet Suomessa 1939-1945 (1998)

Yes, I've read them.

BTW I’m sorry to learn that Vlad Antipov was not mentioned in that article in AIR MAG HORS-SÉRIE No.3. You Russian researchers have much to give to us westerners, not least because Your unique archival material. Hopefully AIR MAG HORS-SÉRIEwill correct this omission.

Thank you for support!

>BTW2 I have heard rumours that the archives of a number of IAPs cannot be found nowadays because they were mislaid after the war or destroyed during the war. Do You know if there is any truth in these rumours?

Yes, partially it's true. But in most cases you can find something you need just in arhives of other units, of higher level for example (divisions, corpses, air armies etc.).
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Andrey
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Old 18th January 2006, 17:24
Jochen Prien Jochen Prien is offline
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Re: JG 54 near Leningrad in August, 1942

Dear Andrey Dikov,

Jagdfliegerverbände Vol. 9 / III, which will be out - hopefully ( I'm a little bit cautious after the latest experience with 9/II ) - end of March / early April '06 will deal amongst others with the operations of JG 54 in the Leningrad area in 1942. I trust that you will be able to find at least some of the answers to yor questions there. Sorry that it will take a couple of weeks until then.

Cheers

Jochen Prien
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  #5  
Old 18th January 2006, 19:12
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Re: JG 54 near Leningrad in August, 1942

>But there is also photos on planes of a Rotte from 7./JG 54 at Utti a/f on 23 June 42, one of the planes is that of 7th Staffel leader Oblt. Friedrich Rupp.<

Obviously we'll most likely get a definitive answer in a few months, but until then I still think Werner vom Hofe was the Kap. of 7./JG 54 in June 42, though I think he left for Staff jobs around that time - and he and Rupp had the same number of vics, at least that's what the claims listings say
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Old 18th January 2006, 19:26
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Re: JG 54 near Leningrad in August, 1942

Hello Andrey
I’m afraid that I cannot help more for time being. Just after the war written history of LeR 3 mentioned the German detachment and said that LLv 26 had rather much co-operation with that det. But we both knew that already and LLv 26 happened to be one of the sqns of FAF on which I know very little on.

The Rotte at Utti: Probably too late for the Hitler’s visit which happened 19 days earlier.

And thanks for the info on the archives of IAPs.

Best Regards
Juha

Jim P. Thanks for the clarification

Juha
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Old 19th January 2006, 08:19
Nikita Egorov Nikita Egorov is offline
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Re: JG 54 near Leningrad in August, 1942

[quote=Juha][And thanks for the info on the archives of IAPs.[/font][/size]
][/size][/QUOTE

Dear Juha,

Unfortunatelly, everything is not so optimistic as it was on the Andrey's reply. Major piece of information was lost especially it deals with activities in 1941-1942. As regards to VVS units some of them are helplessly in informational gap due to absence of direct documents on the regimental and higher levels.

BR,
Nikita
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Old 19th January 2006, 13:37
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Re: JG 54 near Leningrad in August, 1942

Hello Nikita
thanks for the clarification. I understood from Andrey’s message that there are units from which it is very difficult to get info. It is sad to hear that there are units from which it is very difficult/partly impossible to get info. It is sad partly because it makes it more difficult to research the actions of the Axis side but much more importantly because it makes the research of VVS more difficult. Even if the main purpose of historical research is to form an analytical picture on the past, gaps in the facts make analysis more difficult or even faulty. And it is also sad if deeds of some units become forgotten. As we Finns sometimes say, everybody is worth of a song.

Best regards
Juha
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  #9  
Old 19th January 2006, 13:58
Andrey Dikov Andrey Dikov is offline
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Re: JG 54 near Leningrad in August, 1942

Thank you for reply, Dr. Prien.

Of course, I (and we all) watch and wait for the publication of every next volume, but I thought may be someone knows it already.

By the way, can you tell how much your list of JG 54 claims differs from Tony Wood's one? It doesn't matter, because your books are worth to buy anyway, but it's just interesting.

And a question about lists of III./JG 77 claims of September, 1942. Both - in your old JG 77 volume "1941-1942" and Tony Wood's list contain too few of them. And these lists are completely different. I wonder why, and will III./JG 77 list in forthcoming volume will contain much more claims?

In my current research I operate by those old lists and it would be great to understand how much the picture will change.

P.S. Can I send an email to you?
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Andrey
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  #10  
Old 19th January 2006, 14:04
Nikita Egorov Nikita Egorov is offline
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Re: JG 54 near Leningrad in August, 1942

Yes, Juha, you are right. In the case with VVS one major problem always comes up. The organisational structure was fixed more or less only in 1943. Before this we face abolute mess of regiments, divisions, VVS of armies, groups and etc. Taking into consideration the fact that 1942 was not successful for Soviet army many documents were lost in retreats and incirclements.
Another case is when one unit emerged from another (this was common practise). E.g. 263 BAD was primarily formed as 263 IAD in summer 1942 comprising of 812 IAP, 813 IAP, 814 IAP. Documents of 263 BAD begin only from converting into bomber division and the period with fighters is lost in details at least regarding 813 IAP and 814 IAP, which funds in TsAMO are empty. Only history of 812 IAP (thanks to Vlad Antipov and Igor Utkin) can shed some light on the activities of this division through the short period in summer 1942.
Such situation can be frequently met in Russian archives.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Juha
Hello Nikita
thanks for the clarification. I understood from Andrey’s message that there are units from which it is very difficult to get info. It is sad to hear that there are units from which it is very difficult/partly impossible to get info. It is sad partly because it makes it more difficult to research the actions of the Axis side but much more importantly because it makes the research of VVS more difficult. Even if the main purpose of historical research is to form an analytical picture on the past, gaps in the facts make analysis more difficult or even faulty. And it is also sad if deeds of some units become forgotten. As we Finns sometimes say, everybody is worth of a song.

Best regards
Juha
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