|
Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
Quote:
Pozdrowienia, Pawel |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
PHP Code:
Yes, but nevertheless Germany was waiting several days for the surrender of Warsaw, without bombing it. So we could see this as a "trial of human attitude". PHP Code:
On 17.9. should have appear Polish parlementaires, but they didn`t. Cancelling all Luftwaffe attacks against Warsaw on this day was a personal decision of Hitler. Bombing of Warsaw wouldn`t have been a problem, because several bomb groups (Kampfgeschwader) were ready for this action, for example KG 3. And see, the heavy bombing was carried out on the 25th (!!), not earlier. In spite of Russian aggression on the 17th and the whole desperately operational situation of Polish troops the Polish decision not to surrender in Warsaw was totally foolish. Marius |
#13
|
|||||
|
|||||
Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Poland fought as long as possible because this was a result of agreements with France and UK. |
#14
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
Lets not go into the same direction as last thread, disagreement is fine, but shifting towards provocation is not.
__________________
Ruy Horta 12 O'Clock High! And now I see with eye serene The very pulse of the machine; A being breathing thoughtful breath, A traveller between life and death; |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
You are right. I think I should ignore those posts.
|
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
PHP Code:
PHP Code:
Kutno was not the reason of cancelling the bombing mission. Germany expected the parlementaires and the surrender of Warsaw. However some units were indeed directed to the Kutno pocket. PHP Code:
This is Polish propaganda. Luftwaffe did not attack on this day. Or can you tell me what Luftwaffe units did? PHP Code:
I mean "heavy bombing". On the 25th it was for the first time that bombs were dropped in Warsaw almost everywhere, without regard to civilian lives. PHP Code:
Great! After 17 days nothing happened from the French or English direction. Polish government flew outside the country. Additionally Russians invaded from the East. But the Poles had to hope for a miracle and die for nothing. Really wise. Marius |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
Some points from me.
1. Olaf Groehler (not Gröhler) is dead for years. 2. Olaf Groehlers "Geschichte des Luftkrieges" is a popular rework of his Dissertation. So for absolut clearence of this point you should try to get the original work. 3. According to the usual behaving in Third Reich, there is no need for a written order to make a war crime or something similar (in other nations maybe also). Alone the intention of this order is clear. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
Jens,
1. Do you know when exactly he died? 2. The readers have bought and read the book and not the dissertation. But why should it differe from the book? Many people are using the book as a reliable source (look at the German war crimes exposition!). But nevertheless I have presented the original document here on the forum. So you can compare it with the "cut out" done by Gröhler. The authors intention was very clearly. 3. I wrote earlier that in many countries there were discussions about the possibilities and effects of an air war against civilians. This German document is clearly showing it was also done in Germany (discussed does not mean here executed). You will not find a single target in Polish campaign that was bombed with the intention of demoralizing civilians. There was no time to and no need to do such things. On the other hand before the war in Poland there were plans to bomb German cities, for example Königsberg (with the modern P.37 bombers). Was here the intension clear? Marius |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
Quote:
1. Didn't know exactly when, but must be around 1994 or so. Groehler was accussed for working with the Stasi (Eastern German Secret Service). He was fired and a broken man due this accussing. Later i heard from western german historicans, Groehler wasn't guilty... . 2. The intention is clear, but must not be wrong. Maybe he knows more. (Other documents which are not so clear like the quoted document, which ist the best for popular work) 3. That seems wrong. Already at 1st September 1939 german aircraft has order to destroy polish towns. article from German Newspaper "Die Zeit" http://hermes.zeit.de/pdf/index.php?...03/07/A-Wielun Stukas got direct order to destroy the polish small town Wielun. See also reportage by german TV ZDF http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/10/0,...185322,00.html interviewing last surviving pilot by StG-77, who admitted to get order of targetting civilian buildings. Polish civilians reported also machinegunfire by Stukas. |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler
Jens,
2. We had an interesting and hot discussion here on the forum where I asked for such a Luftwaffe document clearly showing the German intention against civilians (in Poland or later). Nobody was able to show us such a document and this is very interesting, even surprising. If Groehler would have know more he had never to cut out the sentences from this particular original document. He surely would present such a "strong" document. The solution is clear: he hadn`t at hand a better document. 3. Joachim Trenkner`s article is well known. But it is a fairy tale (the ZDF reportage was based on Trenkner`s article). The only truth is that on 1.9. German bombs hit Wielun. The rest is based on what was written in Poland after the war. And this was clear directed in a particular direction (one more German war crime). Trenkner even manipulated the take off time of the Ju 87`s in German original documents to bring the evidence that the bombing attack was a brutal act of terror against civilians (according to Trenker the bombs fell at 4.40 hours - 5 minutes before the official attack by German troops!!). The machine gun fire is much questionable. Every book describing the opening of the war on 1.9.1939 is stating about the very bad weather conditions in the morning of that day. Make your conclusions yourself. In original German documents you will find the military target expected in Wielun: a Polish "cavalry brigade". Yes, hereby were killed civilians. But the intention was to hit Polish troops, not civilians. Marius |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
NEW BOOK - LUFTWAFFE & THE WAR AT SEA | DavidIsby | Books and Magazines | 27 | 29th June 2012 01:15 |
Discussion on the air war in Tunisia | Christer Bergström | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 14 | 1st April 2005 19:47 |
Luftwaffe fighter losses in Tunisia | Christer Bergström | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 47 | 14th March 2005 05:03 |
The Effect of Numerical Superiority in the Air War | Christer Bergström | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 11 | 3rd March 2005 09:39 |
Eastern vs Western Front (was: La-7 vs ???) | Christer Bergström | Allied and Soviet Air Forces | 66 | 1st March 2005 20:44 |