[Study] November 23, 1939 : Luftwaffe losses / crash sites over France (I need your help !)

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

For the past several days, Vince (the source of this thread) and I have worked closely trying to clarify the recon a/c losses on 23 November 1939, and obtain good photo coverage for these crashes.

We've now assembled a collection of photos for five of the eight aircraft that came down in France on that day. The ones for which we don't have photos are the following three:

1) Stabsstaffel KG2 Dornier Do17Z-2. Attacked by Curtiss H-75s over Fléville during photo-reconnaissance mission and badly damaged by Capt J-M. Accart of GC I/5. Then engaged south of Jarny by F/Lt J. E. Scoular and Sgt J. Winn of No.73 Sqdn and pursued north to crash and burn out on the railway line between Audun-le-Roman and Trieux, at Sancy-le-Haut 1.10 p.m. Also attacked by Sergeant C. N. S. Campbell. (Beo) Oberlt Alfred Winter and crew all believed killed. Aircraft 100% write-off.

2) 3.(F)/22 Dornier Do17P-1 (3521). Shot down by S/L P. J. H. Halahan and F/O M. H. Brown of No.1 Sqdn during reconnaissance sortie between Verdun and Metz; crashed and burned out near Haumont-lès-Lachaussée 2.00 p.m. (Ff) Fw Franz Hallauer, (Beo) Fw Siegfried Dressler, and (Bf) Gefr Wolfgang Schulz all killed. Aircraft 4N+HL 100% write-off.

3) 2.(F)/122 Heinkel He111H-2. Attacked near Saarbrücken by Hurricanes of No.1 Squadron (F/Lt G. H. F. Plinston and Sgt A. V. Clowes), together with Curtiss H-75s of GC II/5 (Adjt P. de Montgolfier, Adjt Audrain, and Sgt A. Bouhy). Crashed at Koenigsmacker, north-east of Thionville, 12.00 p.m. Lt Robert Aeckerle, Uffz Anton Gumpp, Uffz Theodor Blattmann, and Obergefr Alfred Schidlitzki killed. Aircraft F6+FK a write-off.

For #1, we're still seeking crew positions, names and ranks of the other men who died in this wreck. We still haven't confirmed whether the crash site was at Sancy-le-Haut or Hagéville. We also don't know the a/c code or W.Nr. of this a/c. Peter Cornwell comments: "I have neither photos of the Stab KG2 nor the 3.(F)/22 losses on 23 November 1939. As for the Stab KG2 crew details I do not have the NVM so the information that we have is based solely upon the QMG Returns which, as you know, only included officer names at that stage. Matti does not have their names listed in his database either - an omission that prompted me to describe them as ‘believed killed’. And as the VDK doesn’t do searches on date evidence alone we are stuck with what we have at present."

For #3, there is conflicting information on the a/c code. Was it F6+FK or F6+CK? Commenting on this one, Peter says: "The codes F6+FK came from SHORES’ Fledgling Eagles... & Matti has it documented as F6+CK – original sources of both unknown (to me)." Besides resolving this discrepancy, we also need the crew positions for each of the men killed aboard this a/c.

Since the crews of all three of these a/c are believed to have been killed, the wreckage was probably badly smashed, and it may be very hard to obtain useful markings information from any photos that exist of these crashes. Who can help us either with wreckage photos or further information on these three 23.11.39 Luftwaffe losses?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[Matti Salonen]

I have not found a NVM for #1, but from some source (which I cannot remember) I have got the other members of the crew, unfortunately without positions:
Edmund Puhl, Paul Meier and Hans Czekay

For #3 there is a NVM, with crew positions:
Flugzeugführer Uffz Theodor Blattmann
Beobachter Lt Robert Ackerle
Bordfunker Ogfr Alfred Schidlitzki
Bordmechaniker Uffz Anton Gumpp
Dipl.Ing. Blattmann von E-Stelle Rechlin (E5)

Matti

[Larry Hickey]

Matti,

Thanx. This is a major information advance on these two crashes. Does your information indicate that all of these airmen were killed? Are you aware of any photographs published anywhere of any of these three a/c?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[Rémi Baudru]

Hello,

For the number 3,
I have an other crash site = MACKER in the Moselle département (57).
This village is 3 km south of Boulay-Moselle and 20 km north east from Metz. Source for this location = journal de marche (diary) of the 4th escadrille of the groupe de chasse II/5.
I have noted in my files that one of the crew survived (the gunner) but I have been unable to find the exact source.

Just a minor precision : in november 1939 de Mongolfier was "sergent-chef" (not adjudant). He was so willing to shoot at the Heinkel that he bent his propeller against an Hurricane !

Regards.
RB

[Matti Salonen]

According to my database all are KIA. However, those NVMs from 1939 are not always very exact and quite often a survived person was reporter as KIA if he died of his wouds within a few hours in hospital.

Unfortunately I don't have any info on possible photos.

Matti

[Rémi Baudru]

Hello,

I have also a doubt with this plane :

3.(F)/121 Heinkel He111H-2. Badly damaged in attack by Sgt R. Delarue of GC III/7 during factory test flight over the frontier. Chase abandoned over Belgium but finally crashed at Dielkirchen, south of Bad Kreuznach, 9.45 a.m. FF Oberfw Helmuth Gräber, BF Gefr Armin May, BM Oberprüfer Otto Schulz, and Fähnrich Johannes Schulz all killed. (None found in VDK) Aircraft 100% write-off.

In the diaries from the 5th escadrille from the GC III/7 this incident occured the 22 novembre. The plane intercepted by Delarue was very far from the german french frontier as the start of the fight begun near Vitry le François and the plane was lost of sight flying close from the ground near Saint Dizier.

Regards.
RB

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Peter Cornwell, with assistance from Vince and others, has now revised our EoE Luft Loss listing on these three crashes in France on 23 November 1939 as follows.

1) 23 November 1939: Stabsstaffel KG2 Dornier Do17Z-2. Shot down by F/O J.E. Scoular and Sgt J. Winn of No.73 Squadron and crashed and burned out at Hagéville, north-east of Haumont-lès-Lachaussée, 2.00 p.m. (BO) Oberlt Alfred Winter, Uffz Edmund Puhl, Uffz Paul Meyer, and Uffz Hans Czekay all killed. Aircraft 100% write-off.

Note: we still lack crew positions on the last three members of this crew. Can anybody help?

2) 23 November 1939 Western Front Amend: 3.(F)/22 Dornier Do17P-1 (3521). Believed that damaged in attack by Capt J-M. Accart of GC I/5 during high-level photo-reconnaissance mission between Verdun and Metz but managed to disengage. Then came under further attack from S/L P.J.H. Halahan and F/O M.H. Brown of No.1 Squadron and finally crashed and burned out on the railway line between Audun-le-Roman and Trieux at Sancy-le-Haut 1.10 p.m. Also attacked by Sergeant C.N.S. Campbell of No.73 Squadron. FF Fw Franz Hallauer, BO Fw Siegfried Dreßler, and BF Gefr Wolfgang Schulz all killed. Aircraft 4N+HL 100% write-off.

3) 23 November 1939 Western Front Amend: 2.(F)/122 Heinkel He111H-2. Attacked near Saarbrücken by Hurricanes of No.1 Squadron (F/Lt G.H.F. Plinston and Sgt A.V. Clowes), together with Curtiss H-75s of GC II/5 (Adjt P. de Montgolfier, Adjt P. Audrain, and Sgt A. Bouhy). Crashed at Koenigsmacker, north-east of Thionville, 12.00 p.m. (FF) Uffz Theodor Blattmann , (BO) Lt Robert Aeckerle (of E-Stelle Rechlin), (BM) Uffz Anton Gumpp, and (BF) Obergefr Alfred Schidlitzki all killed. Aircraft F6+FK or F6+CK a write-off.

This has taken a lot of effort, but we now think that we have this correct. We still have no photos of any of these three wrecked aircraft although we're virtually certain that they exist. Who can help with photos?

For those with that volume, there are two photos published in Peter's "The Battle of France: Then and Now" which could relate to these three crashes. One, on P. 116, is captioned as one of the Do17 losses on 21 November. However, confirmed photos of that crash show that it was in the woods, and this isn't, so this cannot be correct. This could show one of the two 23 November Do17P crashes with no correlated photos instead. The other is on P.134, which I'm not even sure it is a Do17. The original source purports this to be a recon a/c loss on 11 Jan 1940, but it doesn't fit other photos that are believed to show that aircraft. That one is at present a complete mystery to me.

Who can help resolve these questions?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[Bertrand H]

Larry,

Of course, page 116 it is not the a/c claimed by Sgt Salès. Page 116 and 37 show the same Do17 claimed by C. Kain at Raucourt.

Bertrand

[Larry Hickey]

Bertrand,

Thanx for responding. I should have looked more closely at P116 as another view of the 23 Nov. Raucourt crash. No question that you are right. I'd already picked up the photos on P37 as being part of that crash. I also believe that P.120 shows that same crash. Do you agree? If not, which is it?

That puts us back to square one on photos of the three badly crashed 23 Nov recon a/c that I'm seeking.

Regards,


Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator