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  #1  
Old 14th November 2010, 04:18
pauldawn pauldawn is offline
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Uncle died over France July 1944

hi guys

ive seen this forum many times over the last 2 years. its taken that long to research my wives uncle who died when his Halifax mk111 bomber was attacked by a ju88 nightfighter over France in 44.

lw166 (427 sqn RCAF, out of leeming) was involved in a raid on the Villeneuve rail yards on 4/5 july 44. it was attacked 15 mins after dropping on target by a ju88, this attack brought the a/c down killing uncle and pilot, the rest of the crew got out (2 evaded, 3 were pow's).

im interested to find out who shot the a/c down. after some research i believed it was Ghunter Schlomberg from NGJ3 , however, having recieved further documented info, i now know this not to be true. ive looked again and believe the luftwaffe pilot responsible may actually be a Fritz Sothe (NGJ4), however, im not convinced of this either. although most of the facts of his "claim" ring true, there is a major factor that doesnt work for me. he makes his claim at 7000 ft. the halifax survivors statements say they were attacked at 3500 ft! a big annomoly!

is there anyone that can help me put a name to the german pilot?

the attack took place at approx 20-30km SW of the Villeneuve rail yards on the night of 4/5 july 44 at approx 0130 (gmt) at 3500 feet by a ju88

any help would great

rgds

paul
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Old 16th November 2010, 17:20
Icare9 Icare9 is offline
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Re: Uncle died over France July 1944

Hi and welcome Paul.
I can't help much but I don't believe a German pilot would record his height in feet, rather than metres. Has an Anschuss interception Report been misinterpreted?
I don't think the height is a major anomaly, as I don't think the crew would have accurately known at which height they were flying when first attacked, and the pilot, F/O "Bud" Moss, who would have known, was killed along with the Flight Engineer, Sgt W Steel. They may well have been at 7,000 feet but standard procedure in evading a fighter attack would be to violently corkscrew down, and the fighter may have recorded his height when he began his attack, the crew recording their height when actually shot down.
In addition, in 15 minutes at approx 200 mph, they would have been approximately 50 miles (80+ km) from the target, but they may have gone round to photo the bomb drop accounting for the distance discrepancy.
The rest of the crew were also RCAF, so it is probable that you may obtain more information than in his RAF Service Record (which I assume you have ordered?) from the RCAF archives, as they sometimes contain additional details, together with debriefing reports, Evasion Reports etc that they may have filled in on release.

It may well be worth contacting the RCAF to see if you can obtain further details, being a relative of a crew member.

I assume you already have the following details?
Crashed between the hamlet of Obville (Yvelines) and Allainville, where F/O Moss RCAF and Sgt Steel are buried in the Communal Cemetery, about 13 km SW of Dourdan.
F/O C.A. ”Bud” Moss RCAF KIA
Sgt W.A. Steel KIA
F/O J.F. Bester RCAF Evd
F/O J.D. Siddall RCAF Evd
F/S H. Atkin RCAF PoW
Sgt G.G.C. Brown RCAF PoW
Sgt J.E. Finnie RCAF PoW
F/S H. Atkin successfully evaded until betrayed by the Mayor of Artenay, imprisoned in Fresnes and Buchenwald before being recovered by the Luftwaffe and delivered to Camp L3. PoW No.8075
Sgt G.G.C. Brown PoW in Camp L7. PoW No.348, with Sgt J.E. Finnie, PoW No.357.

You may well find that the community in Allainville may have been looking after their graves and who knows, a photo may soon appear!
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Old 16th November 2010, 18:16
pauldawn pauldawn is offline
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Re: Uncle died over France July 1944

hi

thanks for the reply. your info re the "enomoly" in altitudes is interesting to me, thanks for that.

weve already received a mountain of info from the canadian authorities, theyve been brilliant! incl evasion reports and pow reports, this is where ive got the info from. theres loads more than has already been posted - its made fascinating readin! we have even managed to track down thasl surviving member of the crew and had a lengthy tel conversation with, hes in canada.

we have pictures of the grave already but youre right, the local community has been maintaing the grave. we even have an eye witness statement of the crash itself and we believe we've identified the crash site.

thanks for your help, ill go check the Anschuss interception Report

regards

paul
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Old 17th November 2010, 23:44
Icare9 Icare9 is offline
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Re: Uncle died over France July 1944

Ah, I see you already had gone down the path suggested!!
Good to hear one of the crew is still going strong!
Send him our best, please.

You should be able to identify which Luftwaffe units flew the Ju88, to narrow down your search a bit. I don't recall if there were Ju88 units permanently stationed in France, so you might need to extend your search.

If 4/NGJ4 and/or Hauptmann Sothe were flying Ju88, and they came down close to Chartres, then it could be him.
Incidentally, Sothe claimed his Abschuss at 1,800 metres, approx 6,000 feet at 01:14.... not such an ennyomolly!!
It may be that someone has given you the details of Sothe's SECOND claim that night at 01:54 in the Artenay area at 7,000 METRES
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Old 18th November 2010, 03:16
thenelm thenelm is offline
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Re: Uncle died over France July 1944

These are the NJG claims for 5-Jul-44. Altitude, as Icare9 says, are in meters - multiply by 3.084 to get approximate feet. Accordimg to Theo Boiten's 'Nachtjagd War Diaries', which is by far the most thorough attempt to match NJG claims with actual RAF losses, and Sothe would still appear to be your guy. 1800m = about 5550 feet.

05-Jul-44, Hptm., Fritz, Söthe, II., 4., NJG 4, Lancaster, PlQu. BD-CD-BE: 1800m [Chartres], 01.14, 17., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 40, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, poss. 427 Sq. Halifax LW166. 40-60km südwestlich-südlich Paris per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Fw., , Blank, III., 8., NJG 5, Lancaster, PlQu. TC-TD: 3500m [Rouen-Beauvais], 01.53, 1., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 37, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.197; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, 61 Sq. EE186 or 463 Sq. ME614. Raum Rouen-Gisors per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Major, Walter, Borchers, St., Stab, NJG 5, 4-mot. Flzg., PlQu. RE/05 Ost N: 2000m [Raum Amiens], 01.50, 27., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 22, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, unidentified. St. Leu raid.
05-Jul-44, Uffz., Heinrich, Siebert, I., 2., NJG 5, 4-mot. Flzg., PlQu. TD-SD: 1600m [Raum Gisors-Gournay], 01.48, 2., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 24, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, poss. 463 Sq. Lancaster ME614. Uffz. Lichert per FMP.
05-Jul-44, Oblt., Hans-Heinrich, Breitfeldt, I., Stab I., NJG 5, 4-mot. Flzg., PlQu. TE 5-7/05 Ost N: 3500m [nordwestlich Creil], 01.45, 1., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 35, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, prob. 106 Sq. Lancaster ME832. (10km südwestlich) Nouiles per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Ofw., Heinrich, Breitenfelder, II., 5., NJG 5, Lancaster, PlQu. CF/04 Ost N: 3500m [Fontainbleau], 01.23, 1., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 101, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, 419 Sq. KB723.
05-Jul-44, Ofw., Hans, Dreyer, III., 9., NJG 5, Lancaster, PlQu. CF: 3400m [nördlich Paris], 01.37, 1., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. -, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, 419 Sq. KB718. Raum Fontainebleau per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Oblt., Adolf, Kaiser, I., 1., NJG 2, Lancaster, PlQu. TU/15 West S: 3100m [Seinebucht/40km nördlich Caen], 02.06, 15., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 17, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.197; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, 106 Sq. ND339.
05-Jul-44, Oblt., Rolf, Klages, I., 3., NJG 4, Lancaster, PlQu. SD 2-2/05 Ost S: 2100m [5km südlich Aumale], 02.03, 2., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 13, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.197; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, unidentified. St. Leu raid.
05-Jul-44, Hptm., Fritz, Söthe, II., 4., NJG 4, 4-mot. Flzg., PlQu. DD: 7000m [Raum Artenay], 01.54, 18., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 41, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.197; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, 801BG/36BS B-24D 42-72873.
05-Jul-44, Uffz., Kurt, Stockbauer, II., 4., NJG 4, Lancaster, PlQu. AE-BE: 5600m [(südlich) Paris], 01.26, 2., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 42, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, poss. 35 Sq. ND846.
05-Jul-44, Uffz., Günther, Schlomberg, I., 3., NJG 3, 4-mot. Flzg., PlQu. SE-TE: 2500m [Beauvais], 01.49, 2., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 106, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, prob. 44 Sq. Lancaster ME699. Raum Breteuil-Clermont per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Ltn., Manfred, Scheunpflug, I., Stab I., NJG 3, 4-mot. Flzg., PlQu. QD-QE: 3000m [Abbéville-Crécy], 01.40, 4., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 24, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, St. Leu raid. Raum Abbeville-Doullens per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Uffz., Gottfried, Schneider, I., 3., NJG 3, Lancaster, PlQu. HF: 2800m, 01.20/45, 10., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 105, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, prob. 801BG/850BS B-24H 42-50386. PlQu. UF: [Senlis-St. Soupplets] per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Fw., Ernst, Reitmeyer, I., 1., NJG 5, Lancaster, PlQu. ED 9/04 Ost N: 2500m [10-10km südlich Orléans], 01.42, 14., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 35, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, 576 Sq. LM532.
05-Jul-44, Ltn., Gerhard, Wagner, III., 9., NJG 5, Lancaster, PlQu. RD/05 Ost S: 2500m [nördlich Aumale], 02.00, 11., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 26, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.197; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, unidentified. St. Leu raid. Raum Aumale-Senarpont per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Fw., Ernst, Reitmeyer, I., 1., NJG 5, Lancaster, PlQu. ED 3-ED 6: 2500m [Orléans], 01.39, 13., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 34, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, 12 Sq. ND627.
05-Jul-44, Ltn., Joachim, Plaß, I., 1., NJG 5, Lancaster, PlQu. RB/05 Ost S: 3000m [Raum St. Valéry-en-Vaux], 01.59, 4., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 36, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.197; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, poss. 207 Sq. ND570.
05-Jul-44, Fw., Georg, Matt, II., 5., NJG 4, 4-mot. Flzg., PlQu. BE: 2200m [Raum Brétigny], 01.27, 2., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 5, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, prob. 424 Sq. Halifax LV970.
05-Jul-44, Oblt., Johannes, Werth, St., Stab, NJG 2, 4-mot. Flzg., PlQu. TA-TB-UA: 3400m [Raum Pont Audemer], 01.18, 8., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 38, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, Villeneuve raid.
05-Jul-44, Oblt., Josef, Pützkuhl, I., 3., NJG 100, Il-4, 10km südwestlich Pinsk: 2300m, 22.13, 20., -, yes, C. 2035/II, Anerk: Nr. 53, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.197, Eins.Osten.
05-Jul-44, Ltn., Erich, Jung, II., 6., NJG 2, Boeing, PlQu. HD/04 Ost N: 3700m [Bourges], 01.30, 7., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 72, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, PlQu. AE: [nördlich Creil] per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Uffz., Heinrich, Schultz, II., 6., NJG 2, 4-mot. Flzg., PlQu. AD-BD/04 Ost N: 2500m [Mantes-Rambouillet], 01.32, 1., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 73, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, 35 Sq. Lancaster ND731 or 419 Sq. Lancaster KB727.
05-Jul-44, Ltn., Erich, Jung, II., 6., NJG 2, Lancaster, nördlich Paris: 3400m, 01.36, 8., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 75, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, Villeneuve raid. 10km nördlich Creil per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Ofw., Johannes, Straßner, I., 2., NJG 2, Halifax, PlQu. CC/04 Ost N: 800m [südwestlich Chartres], 01.36, 3., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 39, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, unidentified. Orleans raid.
05-Jul-44, Ltn., August?, Fischer, II., 6., NJG 2, 4-mot. Flzg., PlQu. AE/04 Ost N: 3700m [Paris], 01.36, 1., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 74, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, prob. 35 Sq. Lancaster ND846.
05-Jul-44, Oblt., Adolf, Kaiser, I., 1., NJG 2, Lancaster, PlQu. CC/04 Ost N: 1400m [südwestlich Chartres], 01.41, 14., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 16, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, Villeneuve raid. 70-80km nördlich Chateaudun per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Ofw., Johannes, Straßner, I., 2., NJG 2, Halifax, PlQu. CD: 1000m [Ouarville östlich Chartres], 01.30, 2., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 38, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, 460 Sq. Lancaster NE174, or poss. 801BG/850BS B-24H 42-95317. südöstlich Chartres per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Uffz., Friedrich, Frick Frick, I., 2., NJG 2, Lancaster, PlQu. AD: 2200m [Raum Mantes-Houdan], 01.08, 1., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 37, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, unidentified. prob. Villeneuve raid.
05-Jul-44, Ofw., Wilhelm, Glitz, St., Stab, NJG 2, Lancaster/B-24, PlQu. RB-RC-SB: 4000m [Dieppe-Yvetot], 00.44, 6., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 40, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, Villeneuve raid. Raum St. Valery-Dieppe-Barentin per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Ofw., Wilhelm, Glitz, St., Stab, NJG 2, Lancaster, PlQu. RB-RC-SB: 4000m [Dieppe-Yvetot], 00.43, 5., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 39, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, 428 Sq. KB756. Raum St. Valery-Dieppe-Barentin per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Ofw., Wilhelm, Glitz, St., Stab, NJG 2, Lancaster, PlQu. RB-RC-SB: 4000m [Dieppe-Yvetot], 00.38, 4., -, yes, C.2027/II, VNE:ASM, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, prob. 490BG/850BS B-24D 42-95170 - damaged and crashed in UK. Raum St. Valery-Dieppe-Barentin per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Hptm., Heinz-Horst, Hißbach, II., 5., NJG 2, Lancaster, PlQu. RD-QD: 1000m [südlich Abbéville], 01.55, 21., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 89, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.197; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, poss. 57 Sq. JB723 or 207 Sq. ND570. Raum Aumale-Abbeville per Boiten.
05-Jul-44, Hptm., Hermann, Greiner, IV., 11., NJG 1, Halifax, PlQu. RC 1/05 Ost S: 2300m [Dieppe], 02.05, 34., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 248, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.197; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, poss. 192 Sq. LW621.
05-Jul-44, Uffz., Heinrich, Siebert, I., 2., NJG 5, 4-mot. Flzg., PlQu. SC-SD: 2500m [Neufchâtel], 01.55, 3., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 25, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.197; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, 49 Sq. Lancaster PB195 or 630 Sq. Lancaster ME867. Raum Forges les Eaux per Boiten. Uffz. Lichert per FMP.
05-Jul-44, Ltn., Erich, Jung, II., 6., NJG 2, Boeing, PlQu. AE: 3500m [westlich Creil], 01.28, 6., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 71, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, Villeneuve raid.
05-Jul-44, Ltn., Lothar, Jarsch, II., 6., NJG 2, Lancaster, PlQu. AC-BC: 1500m [Raum Dreux-Evreux-Chartres], 01.46-48, 4., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 76, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, prob. 433 Sq. Halifax LW120 or LW123.
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Old 18th November 2010, 14:40
pauldawn pauldawn is offline
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Re: Uncle died over France July 1944

hi icare9 and thenelm

thanks guys for some fantastic information from both of you.

im not convinced the war diaries are correct though...

my info is based upon the crews atatements of that nights events and they all quote seperately that they dropped their bomb load at 0115 and were attacked about 15 mins later, they also all state that they were attacked at between 3000 and 3500. even the Nav stated this in his report .

Sothe at 1800m im still convinced is too high but hes also 15 minutes early in his claim. Now, without another contender id have gone along with it being Sothe, however there is another contender :

05-Jul-44, Ofw., Johannes, Straßner, I., 2., NJG 2, Halifax, PlQu. CC/04 Ost N: 800m [südwestlich Chartres], 01.36, 3., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 39, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.99, unidentified. Orleans raid.

or his other claim that night :

05-Jul-44, Ofw., Johannes, Straßner, I., 2., NJG 2, Halifax, PlQu. CD: 1000m [Ouarville östlich Chartres], 01.30, 2., -, yes, C.2027/II, Anerk: Nr. 38, FMP, LW NF Claims 39-45, p.196; Boiten, Nachtjagd War Diaries, V.II, p.98, 460 Sq. Lancaster NE174, or poss. 801BG/850BS B-24H 42-95317. südöstlich Chartres per Boiten.

both these claims are at the correct height and theyre spot on for timings, he even claims a Halifax in both as opposed to just a "4 engine bomber". although im more inclined to go with the Ouarville östlich Chartres claim. he was flying out of Chataudun, JU88s

can you see where im coming from with this or am i missing something that you may be able to point out?

once again guys, thanks for your input i really do appreciate it.

regards

paul
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