Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 1st September 2017, 13:18
Ivo Wilms Ivo Wilms is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3
Ivo Wilms is on a distinguished road
Unknown Mustang III crash (Netherlands)

Hello gents,

I would like some help with an unsolved crash we [a group of local researchers] are working on. We’ve tried many ways to solve this crash (local archives, literature, loss lists, etc.), but without any success so far. The plane crashed in the Sittard-Roermond-Heinsberg triangle (attached is an aerial photograph of the crash site, dated 1-1-1945). This is the information we have at the moment:

From eyewitness accounts we know that:
- The plane came down somewhere between November 18th and November 25th, 1944. Locals remembered the crash date quite specific as on November 18th Hawker Typhoon Mk. IB, MN475 crashed near the unknown crash site and on November 25th B-17G-15-VE, 42-97534 crashed nearby as well;
- The plane was shot down by FLAK located just across the border in Germany;
- The pilot didn’t bail out (flying too low), had one or both legs fractured and was directly taken across the border into Germany on a cart by German soldiers. And here the trail ends, alas…

For years we didn’t even know what type of plane it was, but from recent research with an archaeological approach we know that:
- The plane is a P-51 Mustang Mk. III;
- The plane was indeed shot down by FLAK (We found a wing lamp luminaire with shrapnel damage coming in from below);
- It was a hard crash landing (Many fragmented engine parts and some cockpit parts were found. Possibly the plane tipped over on impact.).

That is basically all the information we have. Does anyone perhaps have more information, or know where to look for a possible match? I was thinking of obtaining all the ORBs from the squadrons that flew Mustang Mk. III’s in November ’44, but I would first have to figure out which squadrons flew Mustangs…

Any help is greatly appreciated.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Crash site.jpg (91.2 KB, 68 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 1st September 2017, 18:22
Horst Weber Horst Weber is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 505
Horst Weber
Re: Unknown Mustang III crash (Netherlands)

Good evening

There is only one RAF Mustang reported as a loss in the time-frame November 18th - 25th 1944.
This is Mustang I, AG664, No. 430 (RCAF) Sqn., shot down by flak on November 19th, 1944: "crashed near Venlo, pilot baled out into enemy lines".
There is no entry in German KU/J-files for this incident.

Hope this helps

Horst Weber
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 1st September 2017, 19:07
Jaap Woortman's Avatar
Jaap Woortman Jaap Woortman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Nuenen, Netherlands
Posts: 498
Jaap Woortman
Re: Unknown Mustang III crash (Netherlands)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horst Weber View Post
Good evening

There is only one RAF Mustang reported as a loss in the time-frame November 18th - 25th 1944.
This is Mustang I, AG664, No. 430 (RCAF) Sqn., shot down by flak on November 19th, 1944: "crashed near Venlo, pilot baled out into enemy lines".
Horst,

That Mustang crashed between Horstweg and Berendonksweg at Blerick, Netherlands.
Blerick is opposite Venlo on the western bank of the Meuse.

Jaap
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 1st September 2017, 21:26
SteveB SteveB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 277
SteveB is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Unknown Mustang III crash (Netherlands)

Hi Ivo

Are you saying that the aircraft is definitely a British Mustang III or that it is a P-51B/C that might be British or might be American? If you are saying it is a British Mustang III can you say a bit more about how you know that?

Steve
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 2nd September 2017, 16:26
Ivo Wilms Ivo Wilms is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3
Ivo Wilms is on a distinguished road
Re: Unknown Mustang III crash (Netherlands)

Thanks for the replies so far.

@Steve: We found a couple of pieces with serial numbers on it; all starting with '102'. According to the aircraft reference numbers list that would indicate Mustang III. We also found a few British made .50 cal rounds.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Mustang III relic.jpg (147.5 KB, 35 views)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 2nd September 2017, 16:46
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 2,636
Alex Smart is on a distinguished road
Re: Unknown Mustang III crash (Netherlands)

Hello Ivo,
Has this anything to do with the Mustang that was recovered in July 1970 ?
The body was not found.
There were two Mustangs in collision, 44-13411 and 44-13615.( pilot ,pow).
If RAF then as in earlier post AG664/430 Sqn on the 19th and two Cat E of 234 Sqn on the 21st.
Then one on the 27th,
Alex
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 5th September 2017, 22:11
Ivo Wilms Ivo Wilms is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3
Ivo Wilms is on a distinguished road
Re: Unknown Mustang III crash (Netherlands)

Hi Alex,
No, it has nothing to do with a Mustang that was recovered in 1970. AG664 crashed near Blerick and the pilot bailed out, as stated above, so it can't be this crash. I'm not sure what you mean with 'Cat E'?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 6th September 2017, 00:29
drgondog's Avatar
drgondog drgondog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 880
drgondog is on a distinguished road
Re: Unknown Mustang III crash (Netherlands)

NAA-102 parts were in NA-103/-104/-106 and -109 particularly wing, empennage.

What it Wasn't was a Mustang Mark I/IA/II NA-102 was the P-51B-1-NA, the very first P-51B, but a/c could have been P-51B/C/D based on 102-xxxxx. I think NAA quit putting serial numbers on parts in Fall, 1944
__________________
" The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 6th September 2017, 02:14
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 2,636
Alex Smart is on a distinguished road
Re: Unknown Mustang III crash (Netherlands)

Hello,
The following taken from 8th&9th Losses vol5.

18th

8AAF
44-14529 - 4FG - NE of Ginsburg.
44-14729 - 339FG - Flak, Saarbruchen.
44-14829 - 339FG - AAA nr Metz.
44--15368 - 339FG - Flak.
44-13596 - 357FG - SW of Ulm.
44-13702 & 44-14238 Salvaged.
P51 - 339FG salvaged in France.
44-14264 - 479FG - pilot returned.
44-14311 - 479FG - Crashed Belgium, pilot returned.

9AAF
43-6367 9WRX Salvaged Laon.
Spitfire NJ561 1 TG, 40m W of Mulhouse.

19th

8AAF
Nil

9AAF
42-103687 - 354FG over allied territory, pilot returned.
42-103206 - 67 RG - ENE of Namur, pilot returned.
RAF
AG664 already discussed.

20th

8AAF
44-13411 - 4FG - Hardcrwijk, RNAF recovery Jy1970 body not found.
44-13615 - 4FG - pilot POW, Collision with 44-13411.
P51 - 20FG ?
44-14535 - 55FG crashed Haaften pilot POW.
44-14586 -"55FG - Brakel, Holland.
44-13564 - Germany.
44-13787 - North Sea.44-
44-15089 - North Sea.
44-14062 - North Sea.
44-14611 - 55FG Flak, pilot returned.

9AAF
44-13765 - 354 FG pilot bailed Kaiserslautern.

21st

8AAF
43-6942 - 4FG - Flak, Germany, pilot POW.
44-14119 - 4FG - S/d Germany pilot KIA.
44-14063 - 20FG - pilot evaded ?
44-14092 - 339FG - SSW of Rheine, Germany.
44-14115 339FG - European airfield.
44-15306 - 339FG crashed into house Handoff(?)
P51 - Last seen E of Brussels, 353FG.
44-15030 - 356 FG pilot got lost force landed in Spain.
44-14185 - 359FG - Dollstadt.
44-14444 - 359FG - Eisenach, pilot POW.
44-14670 - 359FG - SE of Soest, Germany.
44-13976 - 364 FG - SE of Jena, Germany.
44-14328 - 364FG - SE of Eisenach, pilot POW.
44-15176 - 364FG - NW Merseburg.
43-6897 - 4FG - Salvaged NBD.

9AAF
44-13581 - 354 FG SE of Enfurt,(?) Germany.
F6D - 44-13810 - 363FG - crashed NW of Buchenback.
43-25045 - 69TCG - Salvaged.

22nd

8AAF
Nil

9AAF
44-13976 - 354 FG - MIA.

23rd

8AAF
44-14725 but MIA 24th.

9AAF
Nil

24th

8AAF
44-14725 - 20FG.

9AAF
Nil

25th

8AAF
44-11167 - 353FG - flak, Frankfurt.
44-11216 - 353FG - SW of Alsfeld.
44-14969 - 353FG - Texel Leland.
44-14972 - 353FG - Written, Holland.
44-14439 - 355FG - North Sea.
44-15133 - 356FG - SE of Meiningen.
44-14902 - Salvaged.
44-14936 - Salvaged.
44-14279 - Salvaged.

9AAF
Nil

Alex
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 6th September 2017, 17:22
SteveB SteveB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 277
SteveB is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Unknown Mustang III crash (Netherlands)

As far as I can see the RAF did not lose a Mustang III in any location during operations between 18 and 25 November 1944.

Steve
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Friendly fire WWII Brian Allied and Soviet Air Forces 733 14th September 2017 13:37
Ot kolhoznika Koneva Pilot Allied and Soviet Air Forces 11 31st May 2011 15:25
Update:107 Plane crash in WWII, 30 km around of Heidelberg Area Part 1 Klaus Deschner Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 1st June 2010 01:07
19 Squadron Mustang III's at Matlask Oct 44 BIGVERN1966 Allied and Soviet Air Forces 6 24th January 2007 18:36
crash Mustang 316 Sqdn 5 March '45 lancaster Allied and Soviet Air Forces 1 15th March 2005 13:03


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2007, 12oclockhigh.net