JG51 Victories

[Nokose]

Eugen,
Do you know what units and losses were in the first 2 waves? There appears to be another dogfight going on in the same area and time. Fw. Wilhelm Milder 12./JG51 claimed two Il-2 at 19:20 and 19:36 in 34 222. The 15(Span.)/JG51 were in that area from 19:04-19:20 and claimed two Il-2 and 5 LaGG-3.

[Evgeny Velichko]

There were 2 waves of Il-2 formations, and 2 waves of Pe-2. Pe-2's losses were only in 3rd wave. Its only I can say at moment.

[Nokose]

One of the claims for 10Jun43 on Tony Woods list for Pfahler is a duplicate so there is 11 claims for Pe-2's instead of 12. If you look at the time, location and altitude it might help in seeing the overclaim or possible shared claim.
10. Fw Kurt Dombacher Pe-2 19:03 34333 (3000m)
12. Ofw Hans Pfahler LaGG-5 19:05 34413 (2800m)
12. Ofw Hans Pfahler Pe-2 19:07 34412(2700m)
10. Fw Rudolf Wagner Pe-2 19:09 34274 (2300m)
12. Ofw Hans Pfahler Pe-2 19:09 34274 (1900m)
10. Oblt Horst-Guenther von Fassong LaGG-5 19:11 34281 (2000m)
10. Lt Westner Pe-2 19:13 34413 (1000m)
12. Ofw Hans Pfahler Pe-2 19:15 34233 (500m)
10. Oblt Horst-Guenther von Fassong Pe-2 19:16 34232 (1000m)
10. Uffz Barsch Pe-2 19:17 34231 (100m)
12. Ofw Hans Pfahler Pe-2 19:18 35893 (100m)
10. Fw rudolf Wagner Pe-2 19:19 35861 (100m)
10. Oblt Horst-Guenther von Fassong Pe-2 19:20 35833 (100m)

[Franek Grabowski]

Bill
Mike suggests that there could have been some misidentification or misinterpretation by the locals, so your version may be correct. He will check accounts published in Poland. Both Mustangs crashed close to Nasielsk, Vigna NW and Peters W of. Airfield is at Chrcynne, SE Nasielsk (still active). Distances are less than 10 miles. It is possible that the German pilot tried to get to Modlin airfield and their anti-aircraft defences.
Now, how about German losses?

[drgondog]

Franek - thanks as usual for added details. if you will PM me I will send you my Awards lists and my losses lists.

Henry Brown- Yellow Flight Leader Borax Squadron (made up of 355/361 and 4FG ships) was awarded a Destroyed and a damaged 109 near Warsaw plus a damaged Ju-87 on the airfield.

John Elder -357FS CO was awarded a destroyed 109 NW of Warsaw.

Ralph Michelena -358FS was awarded a destroyed and a damaged 109

Marcell Webb was awarded a damaged 109 near Warsaw.

All of the engagements seem to be between 1245 and 1300 (British) on the NW to SE target track to and over Warsaw.

Brown was in Lead Squadron (Borax- Marshall CO), Elder (357) and Lenfest (354) were leading the two squadrons covering the middle and Sluga was leading 358 at the rear.

The Me 109s were reported as flying in 'gaggles' of no more than six and attempting to use cloud cover to slip into the formations. Most of the 109s were attempting to attack from high rear where the 358 were, and the rest came from 12 O'clock high where first Borax, then 357FS engaged briefly.

Major Marshall had issued strict orders to make no more than one pass and return because of fuel reserve concerns.

Brown's combat film on the damaged Me 109 was severe from the looks of it as he hit the 109 in a slight off angle head on pass, then snapped around to take the trail 109, then went to the deck (as usual) and strafed the airfield. The film showed strikes from nose to tail on the lead ship but he was too busy to turn and follow up.

Regards,
Bill

[Nokose]

26Jul41
50 SBAP lost 6 Pe-2 and 122 IAP lost 1 MiG-3 to II/ and III/JG51.
Source: Barbarossa The Air Battle by Christer Bergstrom

JFV 6/I by Jochen Prien
4. Lt Georg-Peter Eder Pe-2 (8) 18:43
4. Fw Otto Schultz Pe-2 (10) 18:45
4. Lt Horst Walther Pe-2 (2) 18:50
4. Fw Otto Schultz Pe-2 (11) 18:50
4. Oblt. Erich Hohagen I-18 (24) 19:01
9. Lt Maximillian Mayerl Pe-2 (5) 18:45 5km S of Dorogobush
Pe-2 (6) 18:45 10km S of Dorogobush

[Nokose]

Originally Posted by Nokose

JFV 9/II by Jochen Prien
Stab II/JG51 Hptm Hartmann Grasser LaGG-3 (69) 12:05 PlQu 47524
StabII/ JG51 Lt Guenther Ruebell LaGG-3 (37) 12:25 PlQu 47552

Losses II/JG51
5/JG51 N.N. Luftkampf, Rshew 100% Wknr 9564

Source: airforce.ru
LaGG-3 5GIAP Mayor Grigorii Denisovich Onufrienko (29 victories, Total for war) shot down by Grasser
LaGG-3 5GIAP Lt Ibragim Shagiakhmedovich Bikmukhametov returned to base after ramming Bf-109 (Wknr. 9541) claim made by Ruebell

Stalin's Falcons by Tomas Polak
List Onufrienko claiming a Bf-109 on the 04Aug42
Bikmuhametov one Bf-109(10th) shot down and one Bf-109 (11th) rammed

I couldn't find this thread sometime back but my friend "Kirche" found it and read this post. Having seen the original report he said all of this was wrong that showed up on the source that I ran across in 2007. He stated there was only one dogfight for the 5 GIAP that day of 4 Bf 109 vs. 3 LaGG-3 which ended with NO RESULTS. He said that the possible information was possibly from the memoirs of N.G. Ilyin who might have been confused about the date of the incident he was describing. So scrap this date from your list result for this incident.

Now day's I do not use Tomas Polak's "Stalin's Falcons". The best book so far is Михаил Быков "Советские Асы Победы Сталинских Соколов" which I got out of a Russian book store in New York for a good price.

[Nick Hector]

Michael,

So do you know the correct date/victors for these losses?

LaGG-3 5GIAP Mayor Grigorii Denisovich Onufrienko (29 victories, Total for war) shot down by Grasser
LaGG-3 5GIAP Lt Ibragim Shagiakhmedovich Bikmukhametov returned to base after ramming Bf-109 (Wknr. 9541) claim made by Ruebell

Nick

PS - Who do I have to bribe for a copy of the book you mentioned?

[Maxim1]

Originally Posted by Nokose

The best book so far is Михаил Быков "Советские Асы Победы Сталинских Соколов"

Well, now the best book is Михаил Быков "Все асы Сталина 1936-1953 гг." (Mikhail Bykov "All Stalin's aces 1936-1953"). It has A LOT of corrections and additions. The 2008 edition is now seriously outdated.

Russian on-line shop:
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/24803155/
On-line edition:
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/28344359/
(click "Читать фрагмент" to appreciate the quality of the book)
Also Google Books:
http://books.google.ru/books/about/%...AJ&redir_esc=y
http://books.google.ru/books?id=mGw5...page&q&f=false

[kirche]

JFV 9/II by Jochen Prien
Stab II/JG51 Hptm Hartmann Grasser LaGG-3 (69) 12:05 PlQu 47524
StabII/ JG51 Lt Guenther Ruebell LaGG-3 (37) 12:25 PlQu 47552

The only exact loss of fighters 3VA in a day in this area (to the north of Rzhev) is 163 IAP 210 IAD 13.15-14.35 (M.T.) fight of 6 Yak-1 against 4 Bf-109 - loss of second lieutenant Guryev Andrey Mikhaylovich (Vydrino-Shestino's region; parachute in the territory of the opponent).
In OBD-Memorial there are details: http://www.obd-memorial.ru/html/info.htm?id=9553899
On protection of Pe-2; he is hit in air fight; jumped out on a parachute; at a landing he was shot by the fascist plane; 05.08.1942 he is buried 1,5 km to the north of the village of Chentsovo of the Rzhev district
Chentsovo (56.4009606;34.3391954)
"the bad guy" is perhaps it there was Guenther Ruebell
I think that else losses of fighters of the Soviet Air Force were only round Zubtsov in 1VA.