Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, guys.

Here is the scan:



I think that there is no doubt that the report here states 1500?5, but I agree that it is probably a typo, and that the most likely correct WNr is 150?5.

Hopefully some other source will be able to clear this up...

Regards,
Andreas

[Jim P.]

That's probably a better explanation/interpretation. Fits better chronologically as well as there are other losses from that series during the fall of 43.

[Christer Bergström]

Yes, we have to accept that even in original documents there occasionally are typos and other errors.

[John Beaman]

Yes, Jim and Christer are right. There are lots of errors in original documents. I've even found errors in Ultra documents which is scary considering how much reliance was placed on them as a source.

In this case looks like the clerk just hit the "zero" twice.

[Christer Bergström]

Yes, obviously.

[Rasmussen]

Originally Posted by John Beaman

In this case looks like the clerk just hit the "zero" twice.

No John, he didn't hit the "zero" twice he mixed up the "5" with the "4" on the typewriter (his fingers were to fast :-)). The 15 0xx - batch were G - 4 trop and not G - 6.

Like I wrote in November/December the II./ JG 53 lost some G - 6 from the 140 0xx - batch ... for example the 140 084 (02.11.43 in the east of Wiener Neustadt) or the 140 088 (30.01.44 near Udine). So the two "zeros" would be correct.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

[Jim P.]

I agree. My previous respose ended up under Andreas' scan, but was meant for your comment!

[Jochen Prien]

Gentlemen,

I feel that the discussion has somehow drifted away from the actual question that I raised regarding a loss report of an a/c of 3./JG 50. So let us try to return to the original issue.

I have meanwhile established some more facts but have yet to solve the basic problem as to where this loss belonged to. The correct location of the crash was not Kloster Chumb - which doesn't exist but is based on just another typo - but Kloster Kumbd, some 5 km north of Simmern / Hunsrück or 50 - 60 km west of Wiesbaden, the base of JG 50. Next - the reason of this loss was reported as aerial combat in the GQM report but there is another source that stated involuntary ground collision as the reason of the crash.

Now, this seems to leave us with two possibilities - either it was in fact a fatal accident by a pilot of 3./JG 50 crahing into the ground due to bad visibility prevailing that day or it was a loss of III./JG 301, a night fighter Gruppe then sharing its a/c with JG 50 at Wiesbaden. This Gruppe was in action against an RAF raid aiming at Leipzig in the night of October 20th / 21st. The fact that remains is that neither JG 50 nor JG 301 filed a loss return that would have survived to this day at the WASt. in Berlin.

As far as the loss reported by II./JG 53 on December 16th, 1943, is concerned it is quite obvious to me that the GQM report is wrong with respect to the WerkNr.; the correct no. should read 140 085.

So let's concentrate on the loss of Uffz. Paul Ullrich on October 21st, 1943 - any further help would be much appreciated.

Jochen Prien

[Christer Bergström]

As I'm sure you know, Jochen, the following notes are made to specify that JG 50 aircraft were lost on Wilde Sau operations:

23 Sept 1943: WNr 15625: Flugzeugführer von 7./JG 301.
27 Sept 1943: WNr 15409: Flugzeugführer von Stab III/JG 301.
27 Sept 1943: WNr 15551: Flugzeugführer von 7./JG 301.
22 Oct 1943: WNr 140066: Flugzeugführer von 7./JG 302.

As you probably also know, it was due to the hazardous Wilde Sau missions that Alfred Grislawski had his beautifully decorated rudder removed from his JG 50 Bf 109. Thanks to that - and to lots of other very helpful people - it can now be viewed next to Hermann Graf's rudder in a totally unique display at Technikmuseum Speyer. See this web page:
http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/rudderdisplay1.htm



Keep up the good work, Jochen! Looking forward to the next book in the Jagdfliegerverbände series!

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, guys.

Sorry mr. Prien, do not want to drift away from your original question here, but just want to make a small point with regards to the consensus on the aircraft from J.G.53:

As long as we do not have further contemporary information with regards to thius airframe, I find that it is dangerous to state that the aircraft was a G-6 with WNr 140 085.

It is definitely possible that the unit reported the wrong aircraft subtype also, and that the record should read Bf 109 G4 15085.

In fact, another aircraft in the same range is reported as being a G-6/trop in the loss records.

So - we have to attach a questionmark with regards to this aircrafts identity in my opinion.

Regarding the missing Namentliche Verlustemeldung at WASt. There is a slight possibility that this could exist in other files, as the routine made it clear that the Namentliche Verlustemeldung auf Vordruck II gem L.Dv.1000 should be sent in 5 copies, to the following instances:

1 x to the Luftflotte using appropriate line of command
1 x to the Wehrmachtauskunftstelle für Kriegsverluste und Kriegsgefangene (we know it as WASt)
1 x to the Ob.d.L.Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt.
1 x to R.L.M. L.P.Chefabteilung
1 x to the commanding unit for filing

As it seems it is not at the WASt, the files of the L.P. is most probably the place to look for this needle in a haystack. The chance that you will never find it is of course very high, but I thought I should share this 'Verteiler' to show that the possibility to find relevant records outside of the WASt is there.

If the unit forgot alltogether to file a Namentliche Verlustemeldung, the only thing we will have is this Qu.-Meldung, and the rest of the story must be researched using probably local sources in the area.

I think I should travel by this place next time I go to Germany, usually land at Frankfurt-Hahn, and drive past Simmern on my way south to Freiburg. Do you have the exact geo coordinates for this Kloster Kumbd, mr. Prien? I think I have found it using Google Earth, at 50 deg 1 min 42.60 sec N, 7 deg 31 min 32.13 sec E.

It is of course a longshot, but would local records from this place maybe have information about the incident?

Regards,
Andreas