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Old 20th November 2017, 10:10
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Hartmann's victims

Hi Guys

I have been investigating Hartmann's alleged over-claiming. If this is actually the case then it is not as obvious as Nowotny and Rudorffer who used specific wingmen to achieve this.

I cross-checked Hartmann's claims against those of his fellow pilots, and certain mans always seem to coincide. However Johannes Bunzek was in the aircraft during many of Hartmann's claims, but when I checked who else was flying with Bunzek it is clear that no collusion is likely between them. Also Krupinski, Roßmann and Grislawski are also not in the equation.

In my opinion if Hartmann was over-claiming it is not obvious because his accomplices seemed to be killed regularly.

The exertion that only eighty of his claims actually fell would appear not to be the case. With many of his claims he is the only claimer, therefore there is no profit for his wingmen to witness his "non kill". However when the likes of Krupinski, Grislawski and Roßmann are with him he seems only to make a singular or small numbers claims, I would guess this means they were true claims. Also on the down side I am suspicious firstly of Werner Puls, almost all of his claims are when he was with Hartmann. Another name would be Günther Toll who arrives at 7./JG 52 from the much over-claiming JG 2 just when Hartmann's claims take-off. I am now looking into Herbert Bachnick and Hans-Joachim Birkner as helpers, but innocent until proven guilty.

The thing is that this is all based on trends/patterns, what I don't have is information on the actual Sowiet losses, which would prove a general theory of over-claiming, but usually not who. But I think I could work-out absolutely who is a cheat. So does anybody with absolute proof of Sowiet losses want to team up with me on this project ? Actually it will also prove the honesty of many large scoring aces.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 20th November 2017, 10:42
Evgeny Velichko's Avatar
Evgeny Velichko Evgeny Velichko is offline
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Re: Hartmann's victims

Johannes.

Fortunatly, most of KTBs of Soviet regiments, opened for everybody on podvig naroda webpage, are covering 1943-45. Exactly "Hartmann's" years.

So You have good basis of Soviet documents to check.
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Old 20th November 2017, 11:20
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Hartmann's victims

As much as I have been able to trace on this forum and elsewhere...

Hartmann's known victims and overclaims:
No.1, IL-2 on 5.11.42/1205 over PQ 44793, Digora (Caucasus) @ 400m: 7 GShAP, 4 VA. No further details known.
No.3, LaGG-3 on 9.2.43/0655-0750 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86722) @ 1000m: 66 IAP lost St.Lt. Ilya Vladimirovich Khludenev KIA this date (was this him?)
No.4, Boston on 10.2.43/0615 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86671) @ 3200m: Was this from 45 BAP? They suffered some losses this date
No. 7, P-39 on 15.4.43/1533 over Taman: 45 IAP, either 41-38451 of Starishiy Leytenant M Petrov or 42-4606 of Serzhant Bezbabnov (but see Waldemar Eyrich's claim). Both KIA
No.16, U-2 on 15.5.43/1210 over Titarovskaya station (Taman) (PQ 86544) @ low altitude: HQ 278 IAD. Leytenant Vladimir Ivanovich Ershov (senior pilot)[KIA] 274 IAP (3 IAK) and passenger Ml.Lt. Evgeniy Ivanovich Kryukov [MIA] 43 IAP (3 IAK)
No.20, IL-2 on 5.7.43/0340 over Ugrim. 241 ShAP, no further details known
No. 22, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0350: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)
No. 23, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0352: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)
No. 29, LaGG on 8.7.43/0905 over Ugrim (PQ 61223) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA
No. 30: LaGG on 8.7.43/0910 over Ugrim (PQ 61221) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA
No. 31, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1805 over Ugrim (PQ 62872) @ 2500m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)
No. 32, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1825 over Ugrim (PQ 61134) @ 1000m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)
No. 39, "LaGG" on 16.7.43/1415 over PQ 54661 @ 1500m: 18 GIAP and Normandie Niemen Eskadrilya. 18 GIAP lost Serzhant Ivan Stolyarov while Normandie Niemen lost Kpt. Albert Littolff (possibly by Hartmann), Lt. Noel Castelain and M.Lt. Adrien Bernavon. All KIA
No. 52, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1019 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61391) @ 3500m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA
No. 53, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1030 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61331) @ 2000m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA
No. 78: La-5 on 15.8.43/1810 La-5 over Peretschepino (PQ 70762) (Sukhaya Kamenka) @ 3000m. No.3810123 of 5 GIAP, 207 IAD, 17 VA, Lt. Samoilenko safe. Plane damaged in combat with Bf109s, crashed due to lack of fuel and written off
No. 89: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0607 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged
No. 90: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0608 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged
No. 94, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 5000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return
No. 95, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 4000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return
No. 96, "LaGG" on 19.9.43/1440 over PQ 58614 @ 1200m: Likely a Yak of 812 IAP. Lt Georgiy Pavlovich Churakov KIA (came down Andreyevka, landed safely but found dead in his aircraft by Soviet troops the following day. Best match by location, timing a little out)
Nos. 98-100, 2 LaGGs and a P-39 on 20.9.43: 288 IAD, 17 VA lost at least one Yak-7 this date
Nos. 106 & 107, P-39s on 26.9.43: 9 GIAD (16, 100 and 104 GIAPs), 8 VA. Misidentification or overclaiming, no losses this day
No. 112, P-39 on 29.9.43/0855 over Zaporozhe (PQ 58682) @ 4000m: Probably Maj. Vladimir Grigorievich Semenishin HSU, 2 x OL, ORB and OPW 1st Class of 104 GIAP KIA
No. 120, P-39 on 2.10.43/1140 over Novo Zaporozhe (PQ 58 581) @ 5000m: possibly Podpolkovnik (?) Arkadiy F Kovachevich of 9 GIAP. Baled out near Melitopol and survived
Nos. 145 and 146. P-39s on 26.10.43, Novo Zaporozhe sector. 9 GIAP. Overclaiming, Kapitan Ivan Korolev returned safely with damage
Nos. 163-165, P-39s on 8.1.44: 5 VA, including 7 IAK (205 and 304 IAD). These claims are believed to be against 69 GIAP, 304 IAD. Starshiy Leytenant Belyaev damaged and returned safely (three bullet holes) and one other damaged and bellylanded
No. 192, P-39 on 4.2.44/1140: 129 GIAP. St.Lt. Bekashonk and his wingman (Ml.Lt. Koshel'kov). Overclaiming, no actual loss
No. 193, P-39 on 26.2.44/0908: 129 GIAP. Ml.Lt. Leontiya Zadiraki baled out and returned safely
No. 194, P-39 on 26.2.44/0916: 205 IAD or 304 IAD. Overclaiming, no other losses at this time
No. 195-199, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. Three P-39s lost from a formation of four: Starshiy Leytenant Rybakov baled out safely, Starshiy Leytenant Nikolay Arsenovich Zinchenko (HSU) KIA and Leytenant Mamin also baled out. Ml.Lt. Demchenko's P-39 was slightly damaged and Ml.Lt. Motuzko's was sent to PARM for major repairs after bellylanding 12km S of Kirovograd)
Nos. 200 & 201, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. These were likely the P-39 of Leytenant Lusto, only damaged or another claim for Vodolazhskiy (also claimed by Rall and Bachnick)
No. 202: 438 IAP P-39 on 26.2.44/1440. This was likely Leytenant Oleynikov, known to have baled out safely 10 minutes after Vodolazhskiy did
No. 212-217, LaGGs on 5.5.44: One of these may have been Leytenant Ivanov of 402 IAP, 265 IAD. KIA this date, attributed to Lipfert or Hartmann
Nos 249 & 250, P-39s on 4.6.44: During 4th sortie, Hartmann and Birkner were jumped by 2 Aircobras, Hartmann claimed both. They were flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP. Both returned home unscathed
No. 264, P-51C-5-NT Mustang on 24.6.44/0950: Day's only loss was 42-103599/42 of 318th FS, 325th FG. Joseph W Harper MIA (Diekmann and Birkner claimed as well)
Nos. 296, 299 & 300, P-39s on 24.8.44: 9 GIAD. Very likely overclaiming, only one loss this date: an aircraft that was separated from its parent formation, pilot MIA
No. 304, Yak-9 on 27.10.44/1016 over Nyregynaza (PQ 18265) @ 2500m: Previously thought to be 2912 ("29-292-12")/"29" of 2 AE, 150 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut, now thought to be an overclaim….
No. 306, La-5 on 1.11.44/1435: Overclaiming. Only loss of an La-5 in Hartmann's area of operations this date is attributable to Hungarian pilot Capt. Laszlo Pottyondy
No.307, Yak-7 on 7.11.44/1335 over PQ 98563 @ 1000m: Initially thought to be Possibly HQ of 13 GIAD, serial 32(292)14? Gv.Lt. Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov. 6 Yaks at 1400m in the Lajosmizse area against 4 ‘Fw 190’s. Frontal attack, the Yak burst into flames. Pilot baled out WIA. Now thought to be an overclaim….
No. 309, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1410: Possibly 0215354 of 179 IAP, 331 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt Evgenii Ivanovich Teplishev
No. 310 Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1415. Known to be an overclaim
No. 311, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1425: Possibly 11186 of 149 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Ml.Lt Aleksandr Titovich Kotlyar
No. 312, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1430. Known to be an overclaim
Nos. 313 and 314, La5s on 14.11.44. Originally thought that these were likely claims for 39213519 of 92 IAP, 279 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt. Sergei Alekseevich Matveev WIA. Day's only known loss of an La-5 but was lost at 1520hrs, to Flak and 2 x Fw190s (Soviet records)
No. 315 Yak-9 on 16.11.44. Originally thought possibly 2015315 of 73 GIAP, 6 GIAD, 5 VA. Alexandr Stepanovich Shuvalov. Now believed to be an overclaim
No.316 La-5 or Yak-9? on 16.11.44. If an La-5, was this Boris Vasilevich Zhigulenkov of 240 IAP, KIA? If a Yak-9 Possibly 2015315 of 73 GIAP, 6 GIAD, 5 VA. Alexandr Stepanovich Shuvalov
No. 317, Boston on 17.11.44/1425 over PQ 98584 @ 2000m: Overclaiming. 453 BAP, 218 BAD, 5 VA did indeed lose a Boston but it is attributable to Hungarian Capt. Laszlo Pottyondy. Csaba B Stenge states this was a "shared" kill
No. 318, Yak-9 on 22.11.44/1140. Overclaiming, no Yak losses in this area
No. 319, La-5 on 22.11.44/1145 over PQ 98452 @ 4500m: Possibly 177 GIAP, 14 GIAD, 5 VA. Pilot Kovrigin shot down in dogfight in Hatvan area
Nos. 320 & 321, IL-2s on 22.11.45: Possibly 809 ShAP, 264 ShAD, 5 VA. Overclaiming, only one loss: crew of Polunin-Kuptsov, crashlanded 7km NW of Csany. Repaired and returned to service (attributed by Soviet sources to AAA).
Two La-5s on 5.12.44: 486 IAP, 279 IAD, 5 VA lost 39212724 of Ml.Lt. Vladimir Grigorevich Snagovski MIA at 1155 local time over Ercsi, S of Budapest (was this it?)
Two Yak-9s on 9.12.44: 150 GIAP lost 2329218 of Gv.Ml.Lt. Lev Gerasimovich Kamanyan crashlanded at 1450 local time after dogfight
No. 352, Yak on 8.5.45: 2 VA, 5 VA or 17 VA, pilot said to be KIA
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  #4  
Old 21st November 2017, 15:21
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: Hartmann's victims

Johannes, Nick and Evgeny

Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

I still am a fan of Walter Nowotny, despite his overclaims and would be interested in Reading (do hope some of you will meet and probably work together in cross-checking those claims) a probable new book about Hartmann's victories in the East.

Amazing work of yours Nick, cross-checking all that

EVGENY, am aware that you and other Russian Historians are doing a grear work with the KTB of Russian Units, etc...please do not forget to Edit in English, so more persons can have access! Me too am considering writing now some of my Portuguese texts in English too!

Congratulations for the excelente Thread.

Adriano B.
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Old 21st November 2017, 16:55
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann's victims

Johannes,

I have all soviet aircraft total-losses for Hungary (crew, unit, date, location, aircraft serial number, aircraft-engine serial number, etc. for 5 & 17 VA and VVS DD planes). I can rule out overclaims for Hartmann (and others) for at least this country.

Gabor
(Researcher of the Szolnok Aircraft Museum)
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Old 21st November 2017, 17:05
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Hartmann's victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by HGabor View Post
Johannes,

I have all soviet aircraft total-losses for Hungary (crew, unit, date, location, aircraft serial number, aircraft-engine serial number, etc. for 5 & 17 VA and VVS DD planes). I can rule out overclaims for Hartmann (and others) for at least this country.

Gabor
(Researcher of the Szolnok Aircraft Museum)
Gabor,
Your posts on this subject have been nothing short of amazing in the past. By all means, share with us so that we can learn...
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Old 21st November 2017, 17:07
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Hartmann's victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko View Post
Johannes.

Fortunatly, most of KTBs of Soviet regiments, opened for everybody on podvig naroda webpage, are covering 1943-45. Exactly "Hartmann's" years.

So You have good basis of Soviet documents to check.
Evgeny,

Can you expand on what I have listed above?

Nick
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Old 21st November 2017, 17:12
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann's victims

Thanks Nick, but first and foremost big thanks to those Russian researchers, who provided this unique information to our Museum we use for recoveries and wreck identification. I can use this data for analyzing air events and claims. Glad to be of help.
Gabor
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Old 21st November 2017, 17:16
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Hartmann's victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by HGabor View Post
Thanks Nick, but first and foremost big thanks to those Russian researchers, who provided this unique information to our Museum we use for recoveries and wreck identification. I can use this data for analyzing air events and claims. Glad to be of help.
Gabor
Gabor,

Please pass on thanks from myself as well and if there is any more to share, I for one would love to see what else is known about overclaims, legitimate victories and the losses attached to them

Nick
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Old 22nd November 2017, 07:48
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Hartmann's victims

Hi Guys

Thank you for your many replies. I will cross-check the Nick list against the whole of 7./JG 52 and 9./JG 52. Seems Hartmann was an opportunist whilst over-claiming.

Certain facts are clear.

In the Summer of 1944 when Hartmann was making huge numbers of claims I cannot really find any obvious obliging wingmen, by that I mean wingmen that get a small share of the over-claiming.........this is quite off putting, in my opinion a dodgy wingman would need an incentive, there would appear to be none. This could mean that everybody with these Staffel's was dodgy.......in my opinion.

If Hartmann's claims over Hungary are honest, well something must have changed. Could be combat no longer over enemy territory, could be a change in personal.

Hartmann was unpopular among his piers, is this because they suspected something(which would suggest there own innocents), or was he not looking after his wingmen.......we are told he only ever lost one wingman, I suspect this is far from the truth?

I have sort have cleared Herbert Bachnick of collusion with Hartmann.

I have not proven any pilots of I./JG 52 of being dodgy....is this the case I now wonder?

A big question is why would wingmen witness his over-claims without personal gain.

It would seem that Nowotny and Hartmann were always going to lead in scoring, because they would claim whatever it took to lead.

Can I ask what about those out-claimed i.e Rall and Barkhorn, how do their claims match-up to losses? With Wilhelm Batz, he had quite a few of his earlier claims A.S.M i.e no air witness, but he did have ground witnesses, surely these are reliable......at least.

Actually Hartmann's claims are remarkable as none are A.S.M, Rall certainly had some, and never really had "big days".

If Hermann Graf also over-claimed, did this process continue with 9./JG 52.

Finally today I read the Toliver/Constable Hartmann book in my childhood, yet nothing in it would appear fact, no Mustang's, no four Il-2's ploughing into the ground after one shot, actually no seventy Il-2's.......hardly any at all. How much information did Hartmann give to the authors I wonder.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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