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  #21  
Old 2nd May 2006, 23:08
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Yes, Bill Lyons is the pilot I am referring to. He remembers lots of details of the encounter, and I'm trying to find out which 109 he shot down.
When the 109 attacked, the flight split up. Yellow 1 and 2 disappeared while Yellow 3 (Lt. Ed Moroney) engaged the 109 but couldn't get on his tail. Yellow 4 (Lyons) then recovered from the stall he entered trying to avoid the 109's attack. At high speed he shot up, damaged the 109, rolled over the top and followed the fleeing 109 in a 45-degree dive and severely shot it up. The pilot tried to bail out but was wounded or killed by the bullets. His dive steepened and he went in with his aircraft.
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  #22  
Old 3rd May 2006, 01:45
Jean-Yves Lorant Jean-Yves Lorant is offline
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Hi Skyraider3D

The distinctive features for the Bf 109 G-10/R6 are a PKS 12 automatic pilot, a FuG 125 Hermine bad weather radio and new resistance elements in the windscreen heating system. Forget the underwing cannons please. As Richard wrote, we never see underwings cannons on I., III and IV./JG 300 Messerschmitt 109 G-14/AS or G-10. Dont forget the fact that the opponents were american P-51s...

All the best

Jean-Yves Lorant
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  #23  
Old 3rd May 2006, 02:07
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Thanks, I understand that R6 on the G-10 does not mean gunpods. I was confused with the G-6/R6.

I know few 109s still used gunpods in 1945. Let alone 109s in green-brown camo. The veteran is very clear in his description about the wing cannon, though. He saw the gun smoke travel over the wings as the 109 flew straight at him. This makes sense for the 20mm gunpods, as the barrel extends in front of the wing. Because of the aerodynamics over a wing, the smoke from the cannon barrel will indeed travel over the top of the wing (opposed to a buried cannon where smoke would travel on both sides of the wing).

What unit could possibly be using gunpods at this point in the war? Could it be an operational training or a nightfighting unit (explaining the dark camo colours)?
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  #24  
Old 3rd May 2006, 04:31
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Not to sure about that Skyraider.

Quote:
This makes sense for the 20mm gunpods, as the barrel extends in front of the wing. Because of the aerodynamics over a wing, the smoke from the cannon barrel will indeed travel over the top of the wing (opposed to a buried cannon where smoke would travel on both sides of the wing).
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  #25  
Old 3rd May 2006, 09:37
olefebvre olefebvre is offline
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyraider3D
Thanks, I understand that R6 on the G-10 does not mean gunpods. I was confused with the G-6/R6.

I know few 109s still used gunpods in 1945. Let alone 109s in green-brown camo. The veteran is very clear in his description about the wing cannon, though. He saw the gun smoke travel over the wings as the 109 flew straight at him. This makes sense for the 20mm gunpods, as the barrel extends in front of the wing. Because of the aerodynamics over a wing, the smoke from the cannon barrel will indeed travel over the top of the wing (opposed to a buried cannon where smoke would travel on both sides of the wing).

What unit could possibly be using gunpods at this point in the war? Could it be an operational training or a nightfighting unit (explaining the dark camo colours)?
Argghhhhhhhh /R6 always means adverse weather equipment Ronnie. The Rüstsatz were never assigned a /R designation and never modified the a/c name

Ronnie check the NAGr 5 a/c i mentionned in an email, this one was heavily mottled with 83 paint and appear quite brown. It might be the same kind of camo which was applied to your a/c.

Another solution altogether would be that rather than a Gustav he encountered a Dora.
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  #26  
Old 5th May 2006, 01:54
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Thanks everyone for all the help on-board and off-board.

Assuming Bill Lyons indeed shot down a Bf 109 (he said it had a birdcage canopy, which excludes a Fw 190 and guncam would have confirmed the 109 too) I think we have a fairly certain match in Werkenr. 491292 flown by Fw. Wilhelm Gärtner. The crash location is in the vicinity of Burg bei Magdeburg. To further support this, the cause and location of Gärtner's crash were originally unknown.

I asked him for a more accurate description of the location and he said it was west or north-west of Magdeburg, heading south. The attack came from the east or southeast and it's not unlikely the pilot tried to escape in the direction he came from. This would lead him to Burg bei Magdeburg. I also asked him if the encounter was a seperate event or not. He said it was a completely seperate event with only Yellow 3 (Moroney) and himself involved with the 109. Yellow 1 and 2 broke left and disappeared. A short time after Lyons shot down the 109 he could here indistinct chatter over the radio. Later it turned out there had been a large air battle more to the east and south of Magdeburg.

Here is a spreadsheet I compiled of all Bf 109 losses I could find (many thanks for the help guys!) for 9 Feb 1945. Only the JG 300 losses were in the vicinity of Magdeburg.



Below I have plotted all the JG 300 Messerschmitt 109 losses for 9 February 1945. Red = KIA, Orange = WIA.



I think on the data we have so far Gärtner is indeed the most likely victim of the encounter with Lyons.

Again, thanks everyone for the help!

Now if somebody happens to have a photo of Werkenr. 491292........?



PS. Oli, you did mention the NAGr 5 a/c but I think you forgot to attach the photo, which you refer to in the e-mail. I forgot to ask you about this
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  #27  
Old 5th May 2006, 02:34
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

By the way...

Near Grieben (north of Magdeburg!) a Fw 190 D-9 of II/JG 301 was shot down on this date too. Werkenr 210905, cause: combat, damage: 100%, pilot: Ofw. Sulzgruber (fate?)

Could this be the machine Ludeke shot down perhaps?
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  #28  
Old 5th May 2006, 02:56
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyraider3D
Now if somebody happens to have a photo of Werkenr. 491292........?
Apologies for spamming my own thread, but could "Yellow 17" have looked similar to this JG 300(!) machine. Note how the fuselage is a solid brown(?)!
http://www.bf-109.de/pics-bf109g/bf1...030-swfoto.jpg - "Yellow 7"
(no gunpods though )
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  #29  
Old 5th May 2006, 13:25
Jean-Yves Lorant Jean-Yves Lorant is offline
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

Hi Skyraider3D

I understand you don't read our JG 300 chronicle vol. 2 - of which only the french edition exist until now - and so you have only partial information about the air battles of february 9, 1945. You wrote: " the 109 went into a vertical dive and crashed into the ground". Wilhelm Gärtner's Messerschmitt was actually hit at hight altitude, went in a short dive and exploded in mid-air at 7000 m. Witness was Fw. Berthold Wendler (3./JG 300).
It would be wrong to believe that Wilhelm Gärtner was at the controls of "your" 109 - if it's actually a 109...

All the best
Jean-Yves Lorant
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  #30  
Old 5th May 2006, 13:47
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Re: Late-war Bf 109 question

I see, hmm...

Do you have any idea what other aircraft it could have been? Besides Moroney I don't think their were any witnesses.

Perhaps it was the Dora of JG 301 afterall? I'd doubt this though, as the veteran specifically described a birdcage canopy and he could see something hanging out on the right side of the fuselage but couldn't tell if it was the pilot. In a Fw 190 the pilot would be clearly visible and it'd be more the "top" of the fuselage than the "right side". Also a Dora wouldn't be able to outturn a P-51 (as Moroney was outturned) and wouldn't be as easy to catch up in a dive (the German fighter went balls out and the Mustang nearly overshot with chopped throttle). Everything the veteran said sounds like a Bf 109 to me. Also the JG 301 was flown by an experienced fighter pilot. The pilot that attacked Lyons didn't use any deflection on a 45-degree-ish shot, and thus missed.

Reading your comments again, Gärtner's story is actually not too dissimmilar from what happened to the 109 I'm looking for. Lyons hit it at high altitude (about 25,000 ft), it went into a 45 degree dive, Lyons immediately got behind him after a barrell roll. He shot up the 109 until it smoked heavily and nosed over into a terminal dive. Perhaps Wendler saw the smoke bursting out of the 109 and described it as exploding? Lyons broke off at this point (around 6-8000 ft Lyons estimates) and the burning 109 went in.
Did Wendler say any more about the encounter itself? Did Gärtner bounce a flight of four Mustangs by any chance, coming out of a cloud bank?

Your help is very much appreciated, Jean-Yves!


PS. I can't really read French, sorry.
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