20,000 WW2 Multiple Accident Files in UK

[Observer1940]

Thought you might find the attachments very interesting, after a FOI Act request for a 1940 RAF Court of Inquiry. The Accident files are not indexed and the VA claim it would exceed the FOI Act cost limit to search the files for individual reports and information.

A Multiple Accident is where more than one person was involved in the same accident.

Recipients name and address has been removed from the VA letter (attached).

[Observer1940]

Thank you for the private message, the files which hold the 20,000 Court of Inquiries are unindexed.

My FOI Act Tribunal Appeal has been before a Judge who upheld the Information Commissioner decision (on a 'Balance of Probabilities' decision) and I am being refused the official 1940 Court of Inquiry documents into my Grandfather's 1940 crash on the basis that:-

a) they cannot be located and the FOI Act cost limit would be exceeded to search all files held in store thoroughly. However, I was up against three Solicitors (1 ICO and 2 Litigation) who were defending the other Parties to the Appeal! I could not continue further because of my health.

However, I did discover from paperwork submitted during the Hearing that:-
i) despite assurances, I discovered that not all files were in fact searched and only a sample of files were searched which turned out to be injury only Courts of Inquiry.
ii) that crashes caused by war are not generally going to be released.
iii) that two Court's of Inquiry went to the Air Ministry (according to K. Regs) and a 3rd copy went to the AIB. The two files usually held in 1940 by the Air Ministry, were an "Accident File" (A. prefix) and a "Casualty File" (P. prefix number being the Air Ministry P.4 Casualty Section). It was claimed that the Accident [A. numbered] files not selected for permanent preservation were destroyed in the 1990s.

However, the Casualty Files (P.4 Casualty Section) are closed for 75 years and it is my understanding from a 1999/2000 PRO (now TNA) Keeper's Report that these files should remain complete until the end of the closure period. Therefore, 1940 files ought to be complete at the moment.

However, a 2004 Parliamentary document confirms that the Court of Inquiries into aircraft accident (called Board of Inquiry in the document) were being removed from the main file and that they would be impossible to find and marry to original file, once the 13 million miltary files (some dating back to WW1) were moved from Hayes to Swadlincote. The FOI Act is effectively useless in this situation. (FOI Act came into force in 2004).

I am very disappointed not to discover easily from official sources.

It appears that the intention is never to release some of the Inquiries into RAF Wartime crashes.

Although, I have been able to discover that although they hit a balloon cable on Eastleigh Aerodrome, the balloon barrage was not the main cause of the crash and that despite the suggestion in released paperwork, it was NOT the Pilot's fault and that the crew were completely free of blame.

Mark

[paulmcmillan]

Mark is this your incident ??

15.8.40 Whitley V P5044 77 Sqn Crashed in Allington Lane, West End near Eastleigh.

Coded KN-O - Crashed returning from Operation to Bordeaux France Crew:
F/O William Alan Stenhouse, Captain
P/O Robert Butler Macgregor, 2nd Pilot
Sgt Claude Lionel Geoffrey Hood, Air Observer
Sgt John Burrow, W/Op
Sgt Harold Davies, R/Gnr

[Observer1940]

Yes, my Grandfather was the Air Observer on P5044.

Their Whitley was first heard and then latterly seen before the impact with the balloon cable ESE of Eastleigh Aerodrome.

The Wireless Summary is missing on the P5044 Flying Accident Card.

The Flying Accident Card 'Cause' box has F6 overwritten by F9, next F8 which was overwritten by F4.

F6 = "Loss of control after hitting or avoiding obstacles in bad visibility" was ruled out first.

F9 = "Unknown or not yet determined". This was obviously followed by a Second Inquiry. My Grandmother lived near RAF Driffield and my family always knew that a Second Inquiry was held into the crash, as to why a balloon at Eastleigh Aerodrome had been hit.

F8 = "Airframe Defect" (F8A), or "Miscellaneous" F8B, was ruled out as the main cause according to the Card.

I discovered in several surviving 1940 balloon cable collision Reports that some aircraft which hit balloon cable/s had been shot at and damaged before the actual impact with the cable/s and F8 is ticked on their respective Flying Accident Cards, suggesting that the shot had damaged the airframe.

F4 = "Flying into ground, sea or hills in cloud or fog."

I have discovered that F4 was also used when there was a problem with D/F Positions or when bearings were taken from wireless stations.

SOS Distress Signals were observed S.E. of Sandown, Isle of Wight before the crash and the Whitley was heard flying up Southampton Water and therefore could overfly the area according to the Regulations, but had to land outside of this area. Boscombe Down was taking our bomber aircraft which were diverted that night.

But P5044 turned and started a descent on HMS Raven (RNAS Eastleigh). After 12 years of searching official A.M. files to solve the 70 year old family mystery I have now discovered the most likely causes of this and am saving it for my book "Four of Our Aircraft are Missing".

According to documents and Naval documents the Civil Air Ministry apparently blamed the Royal Air Force for not having a Warning System and also Warning Lighting at the Langley and Eastleigh Balloon Barrages which would indicate the Eastleigh Aerodrome was out of use, as required by the 1936 Navigation Order/Act. Warning Lights were installed around the end of August 1940 at Eastleigh and an audible warning transponder transmitter known as a "Squeaker" were installed at Balloon Barrages to comply with the 1936 requirements. Other types of assistance were also given, along with changes to Flying Control and my book will go into more detail about this.

Regarding the other collision of Whitley P4982, the balloon barrage at Langley was not indicated on the map according to relatives. I found a 1940 SD map and noticed that the balloon barrage around Eastleigh Aerodrome was not indicated either!!

Mark R. Hood 2011

[Andy Saunders]

Mark

I have read all of this with great interest as I have been talking to the MOD since 2008 with regards to the transfer of RAF Casualty Reports to TNA Kew. (They have already been allocated to AIR 81 in the Kew indexes)

In February 2008 the MOD stated that they expected to turn their attention "within the next couple of years" to the transfer of these records to Kew. Since just over three years have passed and nothing has arrived at Kew I took the matter up again with the MOD. Here, in part, is what they have said:

"Work on the transfer of the RAF Casualty Reports to The National Archive did commence in 2008. This has now been suspended, however, following the identification of some material within the Reports which may continue residual sensitivity. To resolve this issue, we currently plan, subject to the necessary approvals, to conduct a limited public consultation in the Autumn of 2011. Assuming this led to a decision to proceed with transfer, then those files that have already been prepared for transfer would be transferred to Kew shortly thereafter."


It seems to me that these records are likely to be an invaluable and fascinating research tool and I believe we should be placing pressure on the authorities to release them - if needs be by writing to our various elected representatives!

I know for a fact that these files must either be indexed, or at least filed in alphabetical order, because they are regularly "pulled" when the VA or AHB are dealing with historic casualty cases.

[Observer1940]

Andy

Thanks for that.

You are quite correct that the files of the Air Ministry P4 Casualty Section called "Casualty files" by the AHB are held and can be retrieved by the MOD / AHB / VA and other authorised Government Departments. I already have photocopy parts released regarding my grandfather from a 'P' numbered 1940 Air Ministry file after my MP wrote to a Minister in 2003. The information is extremely scant! I have been assured that I have all the pieces relating to the crash of P5044 which they still hold (several Teleprinted Casualty Signals and a brief letter as laid down in the King's Regs for Reporting a casualty only). Not the other information required by King's Regs No.1326.

However, the missing pieces, confirmed in the 1940 AMCO as being required by the Air Ministry Casualty Section are not on the P4 'P' numbered registered Air Ministry file, according to what I and the Tribunal Judge have been told earlier this year by the AHB and the Treasury Litigation Solicitors representing the MOD in the case.

You are also quite correct in the fact that an AIR series at The National Archives, Kew has already been allocated for a while now for the files of the P4 Casulty Section.

I am not excited about the release at the moment, because the Air Ministry were running two files for most RAF air crashes (excluding the AIB file) and the Judge has been told that the Accident files which appears to be the 'A' registered number files (A.108115/40 in my case) were destroyed at 50 years of age in line with MOD Policy and I and the Judge have been told the documents I requested, which I say ought to be on the 'P' Casualty file according to the 1940 AMCO are no longer held.

In 2004 a question was raised before Parliament (I will PM you a screen print from Hansard) confirming that Aircraft Board of Inquiry reports have been separated from the Main file during the preparation of the transfer of the Hayes Archives to Swadlincote. Staff at Hayes complained that it will not be possible to marry up removed parts, or find them easily after transfer.

I did discover that 20,000 WW2 (claimed to be unindexed) accident reports are in files on 4 pallets in a Lancashire store.

What people must realise is that some RAF crashes did not always have what we consider to be usual natural aviation related causes, but were lost due to friendly experiments and war action etc., which went wrong.

Mark

[Andy Saunders]

Mark

Thank you for that, which is all interesting stuff indeed.

I think the content of the Cas Files varies enormously. Sometimes the detail is scant, othertimes it contains a great deal of data - including in the cases of "missing" casualties for example. There will very often be reports on efforts to trace the casulaty post war, MREU report notes, correspondence etc etc. Either way, the content of many such files will surely be an invaluable and unique resource. Clearly, from your viewpoint, you are interested in just the one casualty with a close family link but the bigger picture for researchers and historians is significant, I feel.

As you may know, certain colonial air force casualty records are in the public domain and even available on-line. In contrast, we have a situation here where the AHB are now reluctant (or plain refuse) to supply names of casualties in some situations even although those names, generally, are in the public domain in such resources as squadron ORB's at TNA Kew. In many respects it appears the FOI Act is a two-edged sword with official government departments using it as a weapon not to release information rather than it being a vehicle for information to be released to the public. Well....thats my take on things, anyway!

[Observer1940]

Yes, I have seen some files elsewhere of RAF crashes which occurred in Britain and was also in the New Zealand Archives looking at 1940 crashes which occurred there, so I ordered up several files at random which have got everything from the initial Casualty Report to the official Inquiries, notes, policy, recomendations, medical reports etc.

I have decided to edit my post here and remove the casualty references, because my main reason for my research interest and application to the Information Tribunal Appeal was to get the facts and technical information from official sources surrounding the crash and not just the bare Casualty information.

The family living immediately opposite the crash site said that they were led to believe the Whitley had been hit by enemy fire (reference to friendly fire in the No.4 Group ORB) and veered to miss their house and got tangled in the balloon cable at the balloon site nearest their house.

15ft of the wing was reported as found in a field two miles away. Two files, vary with the three separate Squadron records (924; 930 and 77 Sqns) and also the letter sent to our family later in 1940 that only a singular balloon site was involved, which (according to the official AM map and site number quoted) is the balloon nearest the family's house.

When the 4 AMCOs were changed 29.8.40 to amend reporting an SOS immediately to the MLS at Fighter Command (MLS partly responsible for RAF Bomber movements) and that Aerodrome Obstructions must be notified to FO6 [the Air Ministry - Flying Control] London, immediately in an emergency, RAF Calshot were also to be told that they must have immediate notice to put an RAF Rescue Launch to sea, because they have to check and get authority from the Naval authorities.

The crew knew the proper SOS drill, also the Diversion drill to divert to another airfield, and also the Forced Landing drill as this was their 4th recorded emergency in two months!

Three chaps officially working on the defences stated that the wireless signals which were received by the aircraft would have been wrong.

Mark