Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation

Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation Please use this forum to discuss Military and Naval Aviation before the Second World War.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 2nd September 2010, 12:13
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 806
Mirek Wawrzynski is an unknown quantity at this point
Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

I wonder how many victories did claim Soviet airmen before 22 VI 1941?

There were several small or big air war:

in Spain 1936-1938: I can estimate at least over 210, or even more victories up to 300?
in Chalchyn-Gol: there were about 650 victories.
in Poland IX 1939: several: about 10-15 victories.
in Winter War 1939-1940: there were about 650 credited victories
in China 1937-1940: maybe 100 or more?
in Rumunia in summer 1940: a few (below 10).

So: Soviet airman could attained about 1500-1700 credited victories before 22 VI 1941.

Any comments to above estimation?

Regards,
mw
__________________
Mirek Wawrzyński
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 2nd September 2010, 13:57
Juha's Avatar
Juha Juha is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,383
Juha is on a distinguished road
Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Hello Mirek
FAF lost 53 a/c on combat ops for all causes during the Winter War, subtract AA and operational losses and add those which force-landed or crash-landed after air combat dam. but were repaired later, so you get real figure to “legitimate” Soviet kills during the Winter War.

Juha
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 2nd September 2010, 15:41
Pilot's Avatar
Pilot Pilot is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Srbija
Posts: 1,545
Pilot is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Quote:
in Chalchyn-Gol: there were about 650 victories

in Winter War 1939-1940: there were about 650 credited victories
This simple mean that entire Japan and Finland aviation was wiped off....
__________________
Srecko Bradic
Owner: www.letletlet-warplanes.com
Owner: www.letletlet-warplanes.com/forum
Owner: www.sreckobradic.com
Owner: www.warplanes-zine.com
Email: srecko.warplane@gmail.com
Skype: sreckobradic
Facebook http://www.facebook.com/pages/LetLet...s/308234397758
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 2nd September 2010, 16:23
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,444
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

I have never heard of the air battles against Romania in 1940 ?

On the other hand there is one war missing, the civil war between Red and White Russians (and connex conflicts, with Poland for example) but that is maybe too early for you. Both sides used aircraft and there were air battles.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 3rd September 2010, 13:41
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 806
Mirek Wawrzynski is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Deeply sorry, but I think you are for a long time ago have undrestanand and more then well know, that one thing is claimed and credited victory (by own units commanders and superiors). Second thing is real damage - destruction of plane.
Of course in my estimation I do not count credited victores as a total, and any real loss for enemy side. In reality you should dived claimed and credited vicores by 3-4 and sometiems even more (in Winter War about 7-8 factor) to get real losses on oposite side.

I exactly know real loss of FAF (total losses+ damaged), JAAF over Chachyn-Gol, about Polish Losses in IX 1939, some victories over China (about 80). There were a few air clashes over Rumiania in summer 1940 (if I right rember Sovitet fighters shot down 1xPZL P.7 and 1 x IAR-37 or 39)

So in above calculatin I only think about claimed + credited Soviet victories, but not about real losses done to oposite side. These are two very separate things.

Regards,
mw

BTW
FAF's total losses of course were much higher (destroyed + damaged)then 53. The last figure is if I am right remeber only shot down by Sovite (in air combat and A/A) and total losses excluding damaged and later repaired.
__________________
Mirek Wawrzyński
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 3rd September 2010, 14:18
Juha's Avatar
Juha Juha is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,383
Juha is on a distinguished road
Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Hello Mirek
my source might have been a slightly off, I counted 56 lost in operations plus 4 planes of Swedish volunteers (F 19) for all causes, incl take off accidents even one Ripon which went through ice during a take-off but I didn't have time to check if all accidents happened during operational flights, so the figures are max for lost a/c during operational flights. Of course there were also losses during training, test and transfer flights.

Juha
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 3rd September 2010, 18:47
jeanba jeanba is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 58
jeanba is on a distinguished road
Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Japanese losses are officially 162 aircraft + 220 "under repair" during the Nomohan incident.
Those figures may be underestimated : for instance only 1 ki-10 was offically lost, but it is none that at least 3 were lost
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 4th September 2010, 03:16
mars mars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 333
mars
Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juha View Post
Hello Mirek
my source might have been a slightly off, I counted 56 lost in operations plus 4 planes of Swedish volunteers (F 19) for all causes, incl take off accidents even one Ripon which went through ice during a take-off but I didn't have time to check if all accidents happened during operational flights, so the figures are max for lost a/c during operational flights. Of course there were also losses during training, test and transfer flights.

Juha
Juha, according to "Gloster Gladiator & Hawker Hart: in combat with Swedish voluntary Wing F19, Finland 1940", Swdish lost 3 Hawker Hart in combat on Jan 12 1940, 1 Gladiator in combat on Jan 23 1940, 1 Gladiator lost in accident on Feb 20 1940 and another Gladiator lost in accident on Mar 10 1940. Total 6 aircrafts.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 4th September 2010, 10:01
Juha's Avatar
Juha Juha is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,383
Juha is on a distinguished road
Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Hello Mars
well, the last Glad was lost during a post maintenance test flight, so it was not lost in ops, but I might have missed one loss. I cannot find my best source of F 19 losses just now to check the 20 Feb loss, which might well have been happened at the end of a combat sortie.

Juha
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 4th September 2010, 17:15
mars mars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 333
mars
Re: Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

Juha, I was responding to your comments about "plus 4 planes of Swedish volunteers (F 19) for all causes"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Soviet claims on 22 March 1943 in Kharkov area Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 4 25th March 2010 15:23
Percentage of Verifiable Victories of Various Aces –Updates & Recommendations Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 25 9th March 2010 03:39
Soviet claims on 22 June 1939 (Khalkhin Gol) Håkan Allied and Soviet Air Forces 6 29th July 2009 10:35
Percentage of Verfiable Victories of Various Aces -INSTRUCTIONS. Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 4 3rd October 2006 17:42
Percentage of Verifiable Victories of Various Aces –Updates & Recommendations Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 30th September 2006 10:05


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net