53 Sqn Liberator attacked by 5 Bf 110s 21 Sept 1943

[phasselgren]

Hi,

On the 21 September 1943 a Liberator of 53 Squadron was attacked by 5 Bf 110. This engagemant is mentioned in the official history of the RNZAF:

“On another occasion a Liberator returning from patrol was attacked by five Messerschmitts. In a running fight, two of the fighters were damaged while a third was seen to crash into the sea. The Liberator, however, fared badly, and with two of its engines damaged and gaping holes in the fuselage it just managed to reach its base. All four of its gunners were New Zealanders – Flight Sergeants Bailey 1, Heays 2, Mills 3 and Thomson 4. Heays was badly wounded in the engagement and died later in hospital.

1) Flying Officer F. E. Bailey; born Blenheim, 13 Feb 1910; carpenter; joined RNZAF Nov 1941
2) Flight Sergeant I. R. Heays; born Napier, 7 Jul 1920; shepherd; joined RNZAF Oct 1941; died of wounds 21 Sep 1943
3) Flying Officer H. J. Mills, DFM; born Gisborne, 26 Dec 1921; railway porter; joined RNZAF Jan 1942
4) Warrant Officer I. R. W. Thomson, DFC; born Christchurch, 31 May 1921; miner; joined RNZAF Jun 1941”

Some more information can be found in By Such Deeds written by C.M. Hanson
The citation to Mill´s DFM mentions this combat “with five Messerschmitt 110s” but the citation to Thomson´s DFC is more detailed.
“In September 1943, this Warrant Officer was flying as gunner in an aircraft engaged on an anti U-boat patrol in the Bay of Biscay, when it wa attacked by 5 Me 110s (on the 21st). Soon after the beginning of the attack the starboard beam gunner was killed and Warrant Officer Thomson wounded in the leg. In spite of his wound he continued to man each gun in turn shooting down one of the attacking force and damaging another.”

I hope someone can help me with following information about engagement:

• Aircraft serial number and code (during this period 53 Squadron operated Liberator Va)
• Other crewmembers
• Who claimed the second damaged Bf 110

Of course any other information is welcome.

Thanks in advance
Peter

[Leendert]

Peter,

Pilot here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...y-Spooner.html

Regards,

Leendert

[Leendert]

Peter,

Perhaps you can find more info thru this website: http://www.acseac.co.uk/orbs/login.php

You have to log in first.

Regards,

Leendert

[phasselgren]

Thanks,

I am really impressed to get an answer in such a short time

Peter

[Peter Clare]

21 September 1943.
53 Squadron.

Liberator BZ720/N flown by S/L. Tony Spooner DSO DFC, was on patrol to the west of Lundy Isle when five Bf 110s of II/ZG-1 pounced. Sgt. I R W. Thomson RNZAF, the starboard-beam gunner was hit in the leg and Sgt. I R. Heays RNZAF, the port-beam gunner was hit in the back by a 20mm cannon shell and later died. The aircraft was badly damaged and two engines were hit. Although it was thought that one Bf 110 had 'probably been shot down' no German claims or losses were attributed to this action.


'United in Effort The Story of No.53 Squadron RAF 1916-1976' - Jock Manson.

Regards
Peter

[Evgeny Velichko]

THX for this interesting info gents.

Peter - with II./ZG 1 losses - yes, they are clearly known, and didnt show any records on that day.

But claims - what sourse do You use? TW lists for II./ZG 1 are very far from to be full... For example with Egon Albrecht, some of his latewar claims with StabII./ZG 1 are not known.

[phasselgren]

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

THX for this interesting info gents.

Peter - with II./ZG 1 losses - yes, they are clearly known, and didnt show any records on that day.

But claims - what sourse do You use? TW lists for II./ZG 1 are very far from to be full... For example with Egon Albrecht, some of his latewar claims with StabII./ZG 1 are not known.

The sources I have are the Offcial History - New Zealanders with the Royal Air Force (Vol. II) by Wing Commander H.L. Thompson and By Such Deeds written by C.M. Hanson (with Medal citations). Unfortunately there are no Combat Reports from 53 Squadron among the Reports National Archives (Kew) have online.

I am not surprised to find differencies between British and German records when it comes to claims by airgunners. The gunner never had the possibility to follow the fate of an enemy like a fighter pilot and I assume "over-claiming" was more common among gunners because of this but in the same time I really believe most of the gunner claims were made in good faith.

Peter

[Evgeny Velichko]

Yep

In some fights, gunner claimed 100+ fighters shot down, with actual german losses 2-3 fighters

[Chris Goss]

Tony Spooner was most keen to find out who attacked him that day. Try as I might, I could never confirm for him the identity of the German pilots who were assumed to have come from II/ZG 1

[phasselgren]

Thanks for the help all of you.
Peter