Claims of sinking Soviet ships and vessels in the Gulf of Finland 24-25 August 1941

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Claims of sinking Soviet ships and vessels in the Gulf of Finland 24-25 August 1941


Is the crews of Junkers Ju 88 KGr 806 reported any sinking Soviet ship on 24 and 25 August 1941. The Russians lost 25 August at least one vessel, two others were damaged.

The Russians sent two convoys to Tallinn and one in the direction of Kronstadt

Regards
mw

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Mirek,

24.Aug.41 the big oiler No.11 sunk by Luftwaffe (by II./KG77).

The only ship hurt by Luftwaffe (by II./KG77 also) on 25.Aug.41 at sea was the steamer "Daugava" (VT-522) with 506 wounded soldiers aboard. Though "Daugava" has received a direct hit, lost the speed and was towed, the damages weren't serious. But 21 men lost their life (16 of them due to jumping overboard).
In Tallin the tug S-103 was sunk during the unsuccessful attack against the cruiser "Kirov".

Best regards,
Andrey

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Thanks for this info

I was not sure whether to attack the bombers from KGr 806 or KG 77?
24.08 - there were two convoys. One sailed from Tallinn to Kronstadt, and the other from Kronstadt to Tallinn.

The latter was carrying a bomb and fuel on the Island Sarema. 3 warships, minesweeper T-206, T-209 (sank), T-214 (sank) plus 3 small warships class "MO" .

Tanker no 11 was hit at 18:07, sank after 19:00.

Thanks
mw

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

Thanks for this info
The latter was carrying a bomb and fuel on the Island Sarema. 3 warships, minesweeper T-206, T-209 (sank), T-214 (sank) plus 3 small warships class "MO" .

T-209 and T-214 were mined.

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

I was not sure whether to attack the bombers from KGr 806 or KG 77?

According to Kriegsmarine documents it was KG77. 7 Ju88 detached for the attack against flood-gates of Belomorkanal but temporary used against Tallin convoys. They were used as dive bombers, undoubtedly well-trained crews.

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Yes, both minesweepers were sunk by mines, the last one T-214 "Bugiel" quite near konvoy, near Keri island at 16:30. All ships transported bombs and fuel for 1. MTAP, which attacked Berlin since August from Saaremaa.

I think, that there were not so good trained as were Stuka's crews (+ other tactical quality of dive by Ju 87s). Ju 88s could not sink the next day the next 2 minsweepers (T-203, T-298), the same "problem" was with "direct hiting" already damaged and slow destroyer "Engels", which was second damaged by mine (17:04), but not by bomber. A few or only one Stukas squadron/s and the situation had looked much worse for Russian, but they were needed on other areas.
The Russians were very fortunate, that Germany had no real dive bombers

When you look at Stukas' achivments around Creta a few weeks earlier against Royal Navy (StG 2 or StG 77) - full respect and great success against fast warships.

I understand that during these attacks KG77 not suffered any loss?

Regards,
mw

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

I think, that there were not so good trained as were Stuka's crews (+ other tactical quality of dive by Ju 87s). Ju 88s could not sink the next day the next 2 minsweepers (T-203, T-298)

I think the crews were excellent (as they were chosen for the hard special mission) but Ju88 was less suitable for the dive bombing in comparison with Ju87.
And during the war Ju87s has made many unsuccessful dive attacks against warships at sea too. Maneuverable ship was a hard target even for Ju87.

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

The Russians were very fortunate, that Germany had no real dive bombers

Finnish Gulf convoys were insignificant targets in comparison with advance to Leningrad and other great ground battles of August 1941.
And it was a choice of Luftwaffe: excellent training --> relatively small number of crews --> huge areas without sufficient Luftwaffe support.

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

I understand that during these attacks KG77 not suffered any loss?

Haven't special interest to the episode so don't know. One Ju88 from 3./806 MIA in the Finnish Gulf on 25.Aug.41

Regards,
Andrey

[andrus]

Hello,

Ju 88 was also "Stuka" i.e. Sturzkampfflugzeug.
Führer der Torpedoboote (Helsinki) compared KG 77 crews to Fliegerführer Ostsee units, most probably with KGr 806 and found KG 77 better.
There is one loss of 5./KG 77 on 28.08.1941 on Belomorkanal, it's probably from this detachment.
In addition to KGr 806 and KG 77 there are in Finnish bay also claims by 1./406 for the evening of both days, 24. and 25.8. (I have already posted 1./406 claims in this forum)
plus one claim from 1./125 for the evening of 24.8.

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

I agree with you Andrey. Ju 88 bomber was universal. It was used as a bomber, dive bomber, and also as a destroyer or attack aircraft. For example, the entire III / KG 51 was adapted to lower attacks by using SD-2s.


In the case of convoys in the Gulf of Finland, it was interesting to see who damaged ships on 24 and August 25? Knew that at this time in the combat area was KGr 806 and KG 77. One of the two units, or both, done the attacks.

For example, on August 25 was attacked with bombs small convoy of Kronstadt on the island of Saaremaa (T-203 "Patron", T-298 "Wisturs" cutter sentry "Koral" (stayed in Kronstad, a machine damage?) and cutter sentry MO-208.

The convoy was attacked on August 25 several times. The largest losses suffered T-203 (2 killed, 10 injured) and was seriously damaged. According to the Russians, Germany attacked him/them 17 times and exploded 300 bombs (?!). Something big these numbers. The Russians reported shot down one bomber and one damaged.

It would be interested, if it was Ju 88 of 3./KGr 806 (but he is MIA)?

mw

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Andrus,

Originally Posted by andrus

Führer der Torpedoboote (Helsinki) compared KG 77 crews to Fliegerführer Ostsee units, most probably with KGr 806 and found KG 77 better.

Thank you for the info. What is the date/time in KTB FdT with that comparison?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Mirek,

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

The convoy was attacked on August 25 several times. The largest losses suffered T-203 (2 killed, 10 injured) and was seriously damaged. According to the Russians, Germany attacked him/them 17 times and exploded 300 bombs (?!). Something big these numbers. The Russians reported shot down one bomber and one damaged.

About 17 times - it is from memories probably?

As far as I know, T-203 has reported about two attacks (took place at 13:10 and 16:27 MSK).

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

In the case of convoys in the Gulf of Finland, it was interesting to see who damaged ships on 24 and August 25?

As Andrus wrote above, it maybe (apart II./KG77) KGr806, 1./406 or 1./125.
It isn't "my" theme, so I don't know the situation in depth.

Best regards,
Andrey