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  #51  
Old 15th March 2011, 16:15
Rasmussen Rasmussen is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiegoZampini View Post
Even I disagree with Bergstrom -I have no reason why do not believe that Scherbanin did not ramm Leyhauf, I CONSIDER THE RUSSIAN VERSION CREDIBLE- the shootdown of Leykauf occurred during a combat against Il-2s. It is not hard for me to think that Leykauf flamed Scherbanin's Il-2, and considering it finished, he then realized that was near the Soviet lines and focused in the AAA fire. Unseen to Leykauf, the wounded Scherbanin decided to ram his Shturmovik against Leykauf's Bf.109G, who in good faith thought that have been downed by flak. Leykauf would not be the first pilot who did not see what struck it, and wrongly assumed that was AAA.
Hi Diego,

unfortunately this are assumptions ... and of course it's more heroic to ram the "fascist" before the crash than an simple shot down by the "fascist" (especially for an soviet pilot at this time ... the soviet clerks too). There are eyewitness reports or reports from the mentioned AAA unit known and were cross checked? I'd believe Leykauf was able to distinguish between an ram and AAA fire and to report this correct.

Best regards
Rasmussen
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  #52  
Old 15th March 2011, 16:47
Nikita Egorov Nikita Egorov is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

:-))

Diego,

The majority of reports from Soviet side with such vivid words as: "exploded into flames, crashed trailing heavy black smoke" etc. usualy have no backgound confirmation from German side. Hahn was surely shot down by pilots of 169 IAP, even if not by Grazhdaninov, then by Bocharov.

Please be careful of the sources you use. Stracnizky was not shot down by Danilov on August 24, 1942 and Lasarev for sure can not be a victim of Hartmann, as he collided with Pe-2 and crashed due to this reason on March 1, 1945.
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  #53  
Old 15th March 2011, 17:20
Ota Jirovec Ota Jirovec is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

Diego,

Nikita put it very clearly - many cases provided by you do not stand up to closer scrutiny (Hartmann, Hahn, Straznicky...). It would be indeed wiser not to rely on the Soviet/Russian memoir literature, which is notoriously unreliable. Otherwise, you are in risk of reviving some old myths or even creating some new ones.

Ota
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  #54  
Old 15th March 2011, 17:32
DiegoZampini DiegoZampini is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

Privet, Nikita

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikita Egorov View Post
:-)) The majority of reports from Soviet side with such vivid words as: "exploded into flames, crashed trailing heavy black smoke" etc. usualy have no backgound confirmation from German side. Hahn was surely shot down by pilots of 169 IAP, even if not by Grazhdaninov, then by Bocharov.
My experience with Russian accounts is the opposite: I mistrust when a Soviet pilot says "I shot this aircraft down" and do not give more details. I gave more reliability if the pilot gives a lot of details. Of course I know that, if there is not corresponding loss from the other side, even if the account is vivid, it is likely an overclaim.
Certainly is quite probable that Hahn's victor was Grazhdanikov and not Begeldinov. Wait please till I translate both accounts, and we can discuss about this. Of course, it is quite probable, that you are right

Quote:
Please be careful of the sources you use. Stracnizky was not shot down by Danilov on August 24, 1942
By whom was shot down then? I used Prien as source, who listed Stracnizky downed in "Luftkampf" on 24 August 1942, and Danilov's claim matched quite closely in place and time. There were other Soviet claiminants that day, like for example 296 IAP's Yak-1 pilots Boris Yeromin and Aleksandr Solomatin, but they tangled with Bf.109Gs of I./JG 53.
Furthermore, I distrust the German loss archives. As Dánes Bárnad stated here, the Germans were much less reliable than the Russians to record losses, and that matches my experience with them. Furthermore, the racial prejudices caused that the Germans always prefered credit losses to AAA or "accidents" than to the Soviet "untermeschen" pilots. It varied on unit and period of time, but there is always a huge underestimation of losses causes by Soviet flighters.

Quote:
and Lasarev for sure can not be a victim of Hartmann, as he collided with Pe-2 and crashed due to this reason on March 1, 1945.
In that case I was only quoting Khazanov, but I have Bykov's book Asy Velikoy Otechestvennoy Voyny, Samye rezultativnye liotchiki 1941-1945 gg of 2008, and of course I know that Lazaryev officially died colliding against a Pe-2.
Kind regards,
Diego
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  #55  
Old 15th March 2011, 22:04
Nikita Egorov Nikita Egorov is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

Diego,

Quote:
My experience with Russian accounts is the opposite: I mistrust when a Soviet pilot says "I shot this aircraft down" and do not give more details. I gave more reliability if the pilot gives a lot of details. Of course I know that, if there is not corresponding loss from the other side, even if the account is vivid, it is likely an overclaim.
Certainly is quite probable that Hahn's victor was Grazhdanikov and not Begeldinov. Wait please till I translate both accounts, and we can discuss about this. Of course, it is quite probable, that you are right
You do not have to translate this piece of narration, at least for me, because I have written it myself.
No matter whether report is full of details or have none of them, only matching other side records could give any result in real confirmation of a claim. Lots of details in report could have their origins in pilot's imagination.

Quote:
By whom was shot down then? I used Prien as source, who listed Stracnizky downed in "Luftkampf" on 24 August 1942, and Danilov's claim matched quite closely in place and time. There were other Soviet claiminants that day, like for example 296 IAP's Yak-1 pilots Boris Yeromin and Aleksandr Solomatin, but they tangled with Bf.109Gs of I./JG 53.
Furthermore, I distrust the German loss archives. As Dánes Bárnad stated here, the Germans were much less reliable than the Russians to record losses, and that matches my experience with them. Furthermore, the racial prejudices caused that the Germans always prefered credit losses to AAA or "accidents" than to the Soviet "untermeschen" pilots. It varied on unit and period of time, but there is always a huge underestimation of losses causes by Soviet flighters.
Could I ask you a question: where did you find exact time of Stracnizky's crash and Danilov's claim? Another question is how did you get to conclusion that Yeryomin and Solomatin clashed with I/JG53, instead of JG3. And the last question could you please list other Soviet fighters claims against Bf-109s in this area this day (I could give you a hint, in general there were nine of them)
As regards to loss records, I believe you have got Denes in a wrong way, how you can compare this if you do not see original records from one side and you know that the majority of orginal files from another side has been lost?
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  #56  
Old 15th March 2011, 22:59
ruspren ruspren is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

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Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Hi

Do you remember the Jg27 ace who crept up behind the unit super Schwarm and found them firing-off there amo over the desert, and retuned to tell his C.O what he had seen, and you know that when they got back, it was all heavy claiming......that's fraudulence.
Regards

Johannes
It was "Fifi" Stahlschmidt of 2.JG/27 who "crept up on" that Schwarm. They were making fraudulent claims and yet you don't name them!
Vogel,Sawallisch,Bendert and Stigler of 4.JG27. They got away with it despite a going over from the Gruppenkommandeur (Gustav Roedel). They were however "seperated".
Russ.
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  #57  
Old 15th March 2011, 23:19
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

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Originally Posted by DiegoZampini View Post
As Dánes Bárnad stated here, the Germans were much less reliable than the Russians to record losses...
This is not what I've said. I was only pointing out that the sample of VVS loss records I was shown are even more complete than the Luftwaffe ones. Nothing else.

If, on ideological grounds you distrust the Luftwaffe loss records compiled for INTERNAL use, not intended for publicity, then you're left with virtually nothing to rely on from the German (or Axis) side.
With the same logic, you have to distrust the Soviet loss records, too, as ideologically, the two totalitarian regimes were not that far apart...
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  #58  
Old 16th March 2011, 00:41
VtwinVince VtwinVince is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

Regarding the JG 27 incident, my uncle was 'Abschussoffizier' with JG 27 at the time, and I knew Stigler quite well. This story was not the most popular topic, and was not enthusiastically discussed. Didn't Sawallisch commit suicide over this?
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  #59  
Old 16th March 2011, 02:05
DiegoZampini DiegoZampini is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasmussen View Post
unfortunately this are assumptions ... and of course it's more heroic to ram the "fascist" before the crash than an simple shot down by the "fascist" (especially for an soviet pilot at this time ... the soviet clerks too). There are eyewitness reports or reports from the mentioned AAA unit known and were cross checked? I'd believe Leykauf was able to distinguish between an ram and AAA fire and to report this correct.
Yes, of course it is more heroic if the Soviet flier rammed the "fascist". And I do not discard the chance that there is an embelishment of the event to give other Soviet pilots "an example to follow", or an attempt to cover excesive losses with an "heroic act". But that is also an assumption.
In the other hand, it seems to me that you consider that such event (intentional ramming) is immediately unlikely, like if a Russian airmen would be unable to perform such a deed, and if it would be always preferable to believe a German account than a Russian one. If it is the case, I disagree. And if it is not (if you give the same reliability to the Russians than the Germans), I apologyze for missunderstanding you.
Regarding Leykauf being able to distinguish between a ramming and AAA fire: How could he for sure distinguish between a ram and AAA? Unless he had been hit by flak or rammed before. But so far the German loss records do not show that such a thing had happened. Of course I might be wrong.
Kind regards
Diego
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  #60  
Old 16th March 2011, 07:04
DiegoZampini DiegoZampini is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann - several questions

Hi, guys:
For the ones who don't speak Russian, I translate into English the text kindly posted by Evgeniy, accounting the air combat where likely the La-5 ace Pavel Grazhdanikov (169 IAP) shot down Bf.109G ace Hans "Assi" Hahn on 21 February 1943.

Shortly before 9:00 hs from Rebiltsy airodrome took off six Bf.109Gs, led by Gruppenkomandeur II./JG 54, Major [Hans] Hahn. The mission of the 6-planes group was freie jagd (free hunt) and to seach for Soviet aircraft attacking the German columns retreating from Demyansk. The area asigned for hunting was at the west of Demyansk-Ramushevo. About that same time (+ 2 hs Moskow time, the time difference in Winter) from aerodrome Zaborove scrambled six fighters La-5 of 169 IAP, led by Kapitan Chislov, with the mission of patrolling the area of the cauldron.
According to the report of Hahn's wingman, Oberleutnant [Max] Stotz, kontakt with the group of 8 La-5 took place at 9:09 hs, in the southern end of the cauldron, at an altitude of 2500 meters. The pair Hahn-Stotz separated of the group and jumped the Soviet aircraft with an altitude advantage of 200 meters. According to the memories of Hahn, they attacked a group of Aircobras, after what Hahn shot down one, which blew up in mid-air, and the aircraft attacked by Stotz smoked heavily, and the pilot bailed out. According to our data, in the first attack was downed and died Starshiy Leytenant Vorovyev, and Mladshiy Leytenant Balandin could abandon his flaming aircraft in parachute. After that both groups, our and German ones, scattered and the combat continued. Stotz lost track of his leader and was dragged to maneuvering dogfight with the Russian leader, after what to the damaged Chislov's airplane was necessary disengage to return to his aerodrome. Hahn attacked Grazhdanikov, but doing so he himself exposed to the attack of Grazhdanikov's wingman, Starzhyy Serzhant Davydov. Hahn's fight was observed by the remaining four German fighters. When they saw that Hahn fought alone against two Soviet airplanes, to help him rushed pair of Oberfeldwebel Repple. According to the report of Repple himself: "I wanted to atack the La-5 who flew higher. But I saw that already was under attack of a Bf.109. I identified this aircraft, like the one belonging to Major Hahn. Then I began to climb/gain altitude. Soon after that I spotted two airplanes, and realized that they were La-5s. I dived towards them and realized that they pursued a Bf.109." However Repple was late, Grazhdanikov and Davydov managed to struck the Bf.109. Repple could fire a long barrier burst, after what the two La-5s evaded attack and went to the south. The damaged Bf.109 began to set the course in north-western direction. According to Repple it had not visible damage.
Hahn could not reach his base. For the last time linked up with Stotz and radioed the following: "Stotz, they taught dad a good lesson. I must perform a emergency landing." After that he landed near the road from Novaya Derevnya, south-west of Demyansk, not far from a passing columns of reinforcements.
Hahn was brought to Zaborovye, where he met pilots of 32 GIAP and 169 IAP.
After that was transfered to Vypolzovo, where he was interrogated several times."


Tomorrow will be very bussy, but in the night I will reply all remaining posts, specially the ones to Nikita Egorov and Dénes Bernád (Mr. Bernád, I apologyze that I misspelled your name earlier).
Kind regards,
Diego
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