Late war Bf 109 pictures source

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Many thanks, Nick!
Great to have a much better quality shot from this hangar in Bremen. Do you know where to trace the second picture in such a crisp quality? This would give a better information for "Schwarze 8" and "Weisse 13".

Jochen,
Yes, you do have duly published it, and credited it to the IWM, on p. 502 of your opus. I found the same shot on the AWM website, and thus elected to have it posted for the sake of information. If you still have the original file, I would love to hear your opinion especially about "Schwarze 8" as I doubt that the brilliance of "Weisse 13"'s fuselage will shed much light.

Thanks to both
Marc

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann

Do you know where to trace the second picture in such a crisp quality?
Marc

Sorry but no. I bought the print I have from IWM maybe 25 years ago and I don't remember that there was more than one version (although surely both were taken at the same time, weren't they?).

P.S. apologies to Jochen for not remembering his publication of the photo.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Thanks anyway Nick, and a special thanks for your generous sharing of this excellent shot!

And yes, they were certainly taken the same day: the same water pool is under "Schwarze 8"...

Cheers
Marc

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Thanks to Peter D. Evans, over on LEMB, there might be fresh food for thought about the unknown training unit which trained the Italian pilots of I. Gruppo Caccia ANR, and the aborted III. Gruppo Caccia ANR in early 1945:
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...opic=15903&hl=

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

This pic shows a Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. unknown "Rote (?) 47" from this unknown training unit. Note also in the background "Schwarze 33", maybe also from this same unit (or an EJG 1 plane like those at Mühldorf and Maxglan?). Started by Franck, a thread was already devoted to the identification of this unit in TOCH:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archiv...p?t-23517.html
It's fantasy designation of JFS 14 could be definitely put to rest by Ferdinando and Nick as a blatant case of misinterpretation, and the FFS B 1 unit designation has been suggested but not confirmed. At the hand of those two new machines, is there any further suggestion or information?
Cheers
Marc

[veltro]

I am at a loss here.

The phrase (appeared in the LEMB thread)

(...) an unknown training unit, sometimes referred as FFSB1, which, among others, trained the pilots of I. Gruppo Caccia ANR between October 1944 and the first week of January 1945

make it looks like it was widely known that "FFS B1" was the unit that trained the ANR pilots in Holzkirchen.

Maybe I'm starting to suffer from loss of memory, but to me this wasn't a granted fact, as all the Italian documents and accounts available never mention the name of such unit, as the whole activity in Holzkirchen was devoted to training and Italian pilots always associated their training to the airfield, rather than to a particular unit.

Add to this (my fault) that my knowledge of Luftwaffe training units is next to zero, so there is how the whole picture developed...

I am certainly happy to collect such new info and photographs, but I a bit wary that assumptions could have been made through the whole process without too many confirmations. For instance, it escapes my mind how these two Bf 109s (47 & 33) could be connected somehow to the "white 7", even considering only the different way and style of application of the code.

But, as already underlined, in this field I'm nothing more than a student, so...

[Marc-André Haldimann]

My bad formulation on LEMB, Ferdinando; I had no chance to reformulate it as I could here.....

As for the core issue, I'm a student like you, but in ALL matters;-)). I just reacted to the hight tactical numbers and the fact those two planes were found in Holzkirchen. A bit thin by itself, but maybe it will lead one of our more knowledgeable friends to find out something new... That's my hope

Cheers
Marc

[veltro]

I do certainly share and enjoy your enthusiasm, Marc (that's what brought us your incredible photo-archive on late Bf 109s...), however, it seems that on this topic, we are crossing the border between facts and "wishful thinking".

Maybe I'm a bit an "old school" guy, but would have been a lot better to formulate your legitimate thoughts and guesses as a question, rather than as a (seemingly) fact that may be quoted elsewhere, like I did...

Just my two cents, no offense intended.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Point taken Ferdinando. I love those exchanges because this is the driving force behind research: hypothesis and contradiction. Once those processes are done, there remains the accepted fact. This is not the case here, and I fully understand that FFS B1 cannot be surmised in any way to be the unit which trained the ANR pilots. I also precise that the way I formulated my remark on LEMB was a first stage of thought - formulating the hypothesis without the necessary caution - that I didn't update since; will do it though right now.

I will ofc change the formulation into a question, and cross my fingers new documents might shed light for those Holzkirchen machines.
Thanks again for your highly valued assessment and necessary criticism, Ferdinando: they are much needed.

Cheers
Marc

[ouidjat]

Hello Marc and Ferdinando,

Won't back on "White 7" thread ... But
I just got that Jagdwaffe Vol 5 Sec. 2, "War in the east 1944-1945" by Bergström and Pegg where we can find both "Weisse 7" and "Weisse 24" both linked with ROA ...
Comments about these captions? (Ferdinando, I'm sure your caption is well documented, don't take it bad)

... And, of course, what about that Yellow "+ - 2 -"; still in ROA perspective ?..
(Here on work site they call me "Pitbull" I don't lose my bone!)

Regards, Franck.

[veltro]

Originally Posted by ouidjat

I just got that Jagdwaffe Vol 5 Sec. 2, "War in the east 1944-1945" by Bergström and Pegg where we can find both "Weisse 7" and "Weisse 24" both linked with ROA ...
Comments about these captions? (Ferdinando, I'm sure your caption is well documented, don't take it bad)

Why should I?

Educated guesswork can do a lot of good and a lot of bad, depending on how solid is the evidence, and the phrase in the caption of the "white 7" photo "...W.Nr.464463 is unusual in having a tactical number behind the fuselage Nalkenkreuz. It may therefore have been assigned to ROA..." is an exemplification of that.

The underlined word is the key.

Had the authors already seen the photograph of the same plane (and there are no doubts that it is the same, as no two Luftwaffe Bf 109s have the same camouflage spots, combined to the unusually placed aircraft number and its unusual shape...) in Holzkirchen, would they have drawn up the same conclusion?

I seriously doubt so.

So we have educated guesswork lacking all the info or - at least - one part of the info and making an hypothetical deduction which was based on one single photo.

We, instead have two images of W.Nr. 464463 (you can check them side by side, if you want). Would you drew up the same conclusion...?