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  #11  
Old 11th August 2019, 17:25
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Bf 109G-6 WNr. 164 979

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabe Anton View Post
You info was exactly what I needed to reconcile Kari Stenman's typo.

Not withinstanding ca. three errors in the individual aircraft entries, this book is beautifully done and has given me a wealth of info concerning late 16x xxx series Bf 109Gs.
RA
I would rather say it is a publisher/printer error. Already back in 1976 when writing their first Bf 109 G book, Keskinen/Stenman and Niska wrote the correct WNr 163979!!

Cheers
Stig
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  #12  
Old 19th August 2019, 14:52
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
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Re: Bf 109G-6 WNr. 164 979

Hopefully the final notes to this interesting thread. It seems that at the end of June 1944 the situation both in Germany due to Normandy landing and in Finland due to the Russian strategic offensive at the Karelian Isthmus was at least confusing. RLM had signed with Finland a contract to supply Bf 109 G-6 aircraft fitted with DB 605 A-1 engine and those aircraft were flown from Insterburg airfield to Finland by Finnish pilots. One of the Finnish fighters very obviously was to be WNr. 164979 (NS+XQ) with standard engine 00201904. For some unknown reason the Finnish pilot received on 27 June 1944 another aircraft, WNr. 163979 with an AS-engine 00707759, which in Finland got registration MT-463. The Finnish Air Force pilots wondered at its performance and engine type, but because there was shortage of fighters, this plane was not returned as happened once before, when a Bf 109 with MW 50 –system was erroneously received and sent back.

In Finland, when aircraft data was written to the aircraft card, a typo was made in engine number, when it was written 00708859 instead of a correct one, 00707759.

Very probably JG 3 in the west was not very happy, when they received Bf 109 G-6 with A-1 engine to fight against high-flying B-17s and B-24s.

Learning of this case today is that you can never trust any document without confirming its content with a second source.

Please, have a look and the scan of the aircraft card and the transfer document of 164979, which Pentti Manninen found in the Finnish National Archives among other documents of the real MT-463.

Matti
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File Type: pdf Real MT-463.pdf (42.7 KB, 55 views)
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  #13  
Old 19th August 2019, 14:59
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
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Re: Bf 109G-6 WNr. 164 979

Sorry, the second attachment is here.

Matti
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File Type: jpg False MT-463.jpg (198.6 KB, 66 views)
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  #14  
Old 20th August 2019, 13:17
JoMe JoMe is offline
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Re: Bf 109G-6 WNr. 164 979

Hi

Very, very interesting, Matti.
Thanks a lot.

JoMe
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  #15  
Old 24th August 2019, 13:14
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Bf 109G-6 WNr. 164 979

Highly interesting Matti

Never seen a Finnish "record/overhaul" card before.
May I ask some questions?

First column is obviously the unit from where the aircraft originates, but I cannot read the top line and don't understand the digits 8401. The second line seems to indicate Lentorykmentti 2 (2nd Aviation Regiment) but what does 8521 mean?
Third line Le.V should that be interpreted solely as Lentolaivue (which normally was shortened LeLv) or something else?
Next line, what was LVL (or is it ZVL or 2VL)?

Why is there two columns with dates? I interpret the first date as arrival date and the second one as book keeping date. Since the dates are the same on this card, was it usual/unusual that the two dates differed?
Also why is there no date when the aircraft leaves its overhaul, except on one probable occasion?
I am also puzzled by the airframe (engine?) times listed. It has 121H 55M on 3.11.1948 and exactly the same number eight days later when it returns. Was the aircraft roaded in/out?
Since the engine seems to be pretty bad at this stage it only flies roughly 5H before it is back inside again, appx six months later, now with 126H 20M and what seems to be an engine change, costing 710643 marka, which was finished on 13.8.1949.

Finally I am interesting in the remarks column where there is quite a lot of stuff in 1953 (According to Keskinen/Stenman the aircraft was broken when landing 27.7.1951)

Cheers
Stig
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  #16  
Old 24th August 2019, 14:10
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
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Re: Bf 109G-6 WNr. 164 979

The top line of the first column is "Ulkom." = From abroad"

8401 is Fieldpostnumber of Lentovarikko, Tampere, who received (at least on paper) all new aircraft. Similarly 8523 is Fieldpostnumber of HLeLv 24, which was subordinated to LeR 2 and received this Bf 109 same day.

LeV is not Lentolaivue, but Lentovarikko (Depot). Short of Lentolaivue is LLv or later in the war LeLv. 2VL is Lentovarikko facility at Kuorevesi (1VL is facility at Tampere).
The first column of date is surrender of the aircraft and the second column surrender of the aircraft documents.
LeV received this Bf 109 on 3.12.1948 from the Air Force and 2VL formally signed it to be received on 11.12.1948. In the meantime the aircraft was standing on an apron waiting the paperwork to be done.

After half a year repair the Bf 109 was again airworthy and surrendered by LeV 17.6.1949 to LeR 1, who formally signed it to be received 21.6.1949. During this repair the engine was changed. Total cost of the repair including engine change (but not overhaul or repair of the engine) was that 710643 mk.

Please note that the times are for the airframe, not for the engine. For engines there was a different accounting system.

The remarks are:
The aircraft was deleted from the accounts by decision of the Commander of the Air Force on 24.03.1953 (Letter IlmavE/Tekn-os, Nr. 3106/Lktsto/17/SLL/7 dated 7.4.1953).

These cards have often fairly incomplete content, but still will give some accurate facts for future research.

Matti
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  #17  
Old 24th August 2019, 15:40
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Bf 109G-6 WNr. 164 979

Thanks Matti

As everyone can see I have a bit of a problem with the Finnish language, but also with the card itself.

Hats off to your explanations. Makes a lot more sense to me now!!!

Cheers
Stig
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