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Old 21st May 2016, 18:01
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Broncazonk Broncazonk is offline
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Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

My suggestion, as it pertains to Hartmann, would be to establish a Hartmann working group comprised of the experts on this forum. We have all of the people required on this forum to finally, and definitely, resolve this matter. Furthermore, we have experts who could structure, document and mediate the effort to ensure maximum accuracy and fairness.

In my mind, the Hartmann issue is a tough one. The pilots of the Luftwaffe knew who the fakers and over-claimers were, and those people were not asked to join the post-WWII German air force. Hartmann was asked to join, and he was well regarded within the Luftwaffe and post war. This alone is definitive evidence in my mind that the issue is far more complex than merely comparing records in Germany and Russia.

In my opinion, the members of this forum have the resources and capability to accurately address this matter in an ethical manner. And we should. (Not 'me' of-course, I'm completely out of my depth, but the usual suspects. Everyone knows who they are.)

Such an effort, one that discloses it's research methodology and principles from the very beginning would be credible, and the work would be historic.

In the end, I don't care what the answer is, I just want the right answer, as I'm sure we all do.

Bronc
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Old 21st May 2016, 18:39
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Establish a Hartmann 'Working Group'

Bronc,

In February, 2014 in the topic called: "German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...", #125, 133, 139, 140, etc. we have already gone through many of these details. Huge difference in reliability between Hartmann, Lipfert and others. And I am not the only one who says this, but even some Russian researchers as well. But from the distance of over 70 years, I do not know any better method to clarify things other than comparing written records of German and Russian Archives. The Russian records are excellent, listing their planes in service quarterly, as well as their losses by AC S/N, engine S/N, etc... in multiple levels of records.

Again, I do not say that Hartmann didn't encounter his reported opponents, I just say that most of his credited 'victories' finally returned to their base and after repair went back to service = weren't real victories.
Cheers,

Gabor
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Old 21st May 2016, 19:21
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Re: Establish a Hartmann 'Working Group'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broncazonk View Post
My suggestion, as it pertains to Hartmann, would be to establish a Hartmann working group comprised of the experts on this forum. We have all of the people required on this forum to finally, and definitely, resolve this matter. Furthermore, we have experts who could structure, document and mediate the effort to ensure maximum accuracy and fairness.

In my mind, the Hartmann issue is a tough one. The pilots of the Luftwaffe knew who the fakers and over-claimers were, and those people were not asked to join the post-WWII German air force. Hartmann was asked to join, and he was well regarded within the Luftwaffe and post war. This alone is definitive evidence in my mind that the issue is far more complex than merely comparing records in Germany and Russia.

In my opinion, the members of this forum have the resources and capability to accurately address this matter in an ethical manner. And we should. (Not 'me' of-course, I'm completely out of my depth, but the usual suspects. Everyone knows who they are.)

Such an effort, one that discloses it's research methodology and principles from the very beginning would be credible, and the work would be historic.

In the end, I don't care what the answer is, I just want the right answer, as I'm sure we all do.

Bronc
That's exactly what I meant. Great suggestion, Sir !
The issue definitely deserves a another thread than this - or much better - your proposed "Hartmann Working Group" made up of the most renowned experts dealing with the matter in a scientific and fair way.

To answer Nick's question: As a mere member of the audience I prefer the info that is substantiated by evidence or eminence until the results of that working group are published.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 09:40
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: German day fighter top aces by JG

Here's a start, needs some work I now, but for what it's worth.

Hartmann's known claims:
No.1, IL-2 on 5.11.42/1205 over PQ 44793, Digora (Caucasus) @ 400m: 7 GShAP, 4 VA. No further details known.
No.3, LaGG-3 on 9.2.43/0655-0750 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86722) @ 1000m: 66 IAP lost St.Lt. Ilya Vladimirovich Khludenev KIA this date (was this him?)
No.4, Boston on 10.2.43/0615 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86671) @ 3200m: Was this from 45 BAP? They suffered some losses this date
No. 7, P-39 on 15.4.43/1533 over Taman: 45 IAP, either 41-38451 of Starishiy Leytenant M Petrov or 42-4606 of Serzhant Bezbabnov (but see Waldemar Eyrich's claim). Both KIA
No.16, U-2 on 15.5.43/1210 over Titarovskaya station (Taman) (PQ 86544) @ low altitude: HQ 278 IAD. Leytenant Vladimir Ivanovich Ershov (senior pilot)[KIA] 274 IAP (3 IAK) and passenger Ml.Lt. Evgeniy Ivanovich Kryukov [MIA] 43 IAP (3 IAK)
No. 22, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0350: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)
No. 23, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0352: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)
No. 29, LaGG on 8.7.43/0905 over Ugrim (PQ 61223) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA
No. 30: LaGG on 8.7.43/0910 over Ugrim (PQ 61221) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA
No. 31, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1805 over Ugrim (PQ 62872) @ 2500m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)
No. 32, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1825 over Ugrim (PQ 61134) @ 1000m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)
No. 39, "LaGG" on 16.7.43/1415 over PQ 54661 @ 1500m: 18 GIAP and Normandie Niemen Eskadrilya. 18 GIAP lost Serzhant Ivan Stolyarov while Normandie Niemen lost Kpt. Albert Littolff (possibly by Hartmann), Lt. Noel Castelain and M.Lt. Adrien Bernavon. All KIA
No. 52, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1019 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61391) @ 3500m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA
No. 53, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1030 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61331) @ 2000m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA
No. 89: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0607 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged
No. 90: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0608 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged
No. 94, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 5000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return
No. 95, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 4000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return
No. 96, "LaGG" on 19.9.43/1440 over PQ 58614 @ 1200m: Likely a Yak of 812 IAP. Lt Georgiy Pavlovich Churakov KIA (came down Andreyevka, landed safely but found dead in his aircraft by Soviet troops the following day. Best match by location, timing a little out)
Nos. 98-100, 2 LaGGs and a P-39 on 20.9.43: 288 IAD, 17 VA lost at least one Yak-7 this date
Nos. 106 & 107, P-39s on 26.9.43: 9 GIAD (16, 100 and 104 GIAPs), 8 VA. Misidentification or overclaiming, no losses this day
No. 112, P-39 on 29.9.43/0855 over Zaporozhe (PQ 58682) @ 4000m: Probably Maj. Vladimir Grigorievich Semenishin HSU, 2 x OL, ORB and OPW 1st Class of 104 GIAP KIA
No. 120, P-39 on 2.10.43/1140 over Novo Zaporozhe (PQ 58 581) @ 5000m: possibly Podpolkovnik (?) Arkadiy F Kovachevich of 9 GIAP. Baled out near Melitopol and survived
Nos. 163-165, P-39s on 8.1.44: 5 VA, including 7 IAK (205 and 304 IAD). These claims are believed to be against 69 GIAP, 304 IAD. Starshiy Leytenant Belyaev damaged and returned safely (three bullet holes) and one other damaged and bellylanded
No. 192, P-39 on 4.2.44/1140: 129 GIAP. St.Lt. Bekashonk and his wingman (Ml.Lt. Koshel'kov). Overclaiming, no actual loss
No. 193, P-39 on 26.2.44/0908: 129 GIAP. Ml.Lt. Leontiya Zadiraki baled out and returned safely
No. 194, P-39 on 26.2.44/0916: 205 IAD or 304 IAD. Overclaiming, no other losses at this time
No. 195-199, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. Three P-39s lost from a formation of four: Starshiy Leytenant Rybakov baled out safely, Starshiy Leytenant Nikolay Arsenovich Zinchenko (HSU) KIA and Leytenant Mamin also baled out. Ml.Lt. Demchenko's P-39 was slightly damaged and Ml.Lt. Motuzko's was sent to PARM for major repairs after bellylanding 12km S of Kirovograd)
Nos. 200 & 201, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. These were likely the P-39 of Leytenant Lusto, only damaged or another claim for Vodolazhskiy (also claimed by Rall and Bachnick)
No. 202: 438 IAP P-39 on 26.2.44/1440. This was likely Leytenant Oleynikov, known to have baled out safely 10 minutes after Vodolazhskiy did
No. 212-217, LaGGs on 5.5.44: One of these may have been Leytenant Ivanov of 402 IAP, 265 IAD. KIA this date, attributed to Lipfert or Hartmann
Nos 249 & 250, P-39s on 4.6.44: During 4th sortie, Hartmann and Birkner were jumped by 2 Aircobras, Hartmann claimed both. They were flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP. Both returned home unscathed
No. 264, P-51C-5-NT Mustang on 24.6.44/0950: 42-103599/42 of 318th FS, 325th FG. Joseph W Harper MIA (Diekmann and Birkner claimed as well)
Nos. 296, 299 & 300, P-39s on 24.8.44: 9 GIAD. Very likely overclaiming, only one loss this date: an aircraft that was separated from its parent formation, pilot MIA
No. 304, Yak-9 on 27.10.44/1016 over Nyregynaza (PQ 18265) @ 2500m: 2912 ("29-292-12")/"29" of 2 AE, 150 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut
No. 306, La-5 on 1.11.44/1435: Overclaiming. Only loss of an La-5 in Hartmann's area of operations this date is attributable to Hungarian pilot Capt. Laszlo Pottyondy
No.307, Yak-7 on 7.11.44/1335 over PQ 98563 @ 1000m: Possibly HQ of 13 GIAD, serial perhaps 32(292)14. gv.l-t Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov. 6 Yaks at 1400m in the Lajosmizse area against 4 ‘Fw 190’s. Frontal attack, the Yak burst into flames. Pilot baled out WIA
No. 309, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1410: Possibly 0215354 of 179 IAP, 331 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt Evgenii Ivanovich Teplishev
No. 311, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1425: Possibly 11186 of 149 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Ml.Lt Aleksandr Titovich Kotlyar
No. 317, Boston on 17.11.44/1425 over PQ 98584 @ 2000m: A definite Soviet Boston loss to fighters this date came from 453 BAP, 218 BAD, 5 VA
No. 319, La-5 on 22.11.44/1145 over PQ 98452 @ 4500m: Possibly 177 GIAP, 14 GIAD, 5 VA. Pilot Kovrigin shot down in dogfight in Hatvan area
Nos. 320 & 321, IL-2s on 22.11.45: Possibly 809 ShAP, 264 ShAD, 5 VA. Overclaiming, only one loss: crew of Polunin-Kuptsov, crashlanded 7km NW of Csany. Repaired and returned to service (attributed by Soviet sources to AAA).
No. 352, Yak on 8.5.45: 2 VA, 5 VA or 17 VA, pilot said to be KIA
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Old 23rd May 2016, 14:57
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: German day fighter top aces by JG

Hi Folks,

Alright, again. Hartmann's claim list is LESS THAN POOR. Full of fantasy, - UNLESS his reported victory times and locations are completely inaccurate. (But then how can you trust them??????????) The soviets had reported the hours and minutes of their losses, the reported times in Hartmann's claims are usually 1-2 hrs off! That's way too big time difference to accept them, especially, when other pilots claimed them with much better accuracy both in time and location. So probably you understand why I say his '352' is just fantasy and a nice fairy tale and he had max. 100-150 real victories AT BEST, not 352! Also have to mention, that with the same method and criterias, eg. Lipfert's claims were 90+ % accurate (both time- and locationwise), matching the soviet reports, so it is NOT the method, the data, or the reports, - IT IS THE PILOT...! Other pilots with less victories were much more accurate than him!

Based on Hartmann's victory list on: http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hartmann.html

305: OVERCLAIM - 27.10.1944 10:16 Yak-9 4./JG 52 18 265: at 2.500m
306: ? (NOT in 5 VA for sure, no data from 8 VA) 31.10.1944 15:30 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 799
307: OVERCLAIM - 1.11.1944 14:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m
307: OVERCLAIM - 7.11.1944 13:35 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m
308: OK - 13.11.1944 14:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 89 ---: at 5.000m - Teplishev Yak-9T
309: OVERCLAIM - 13.11.1944 14:15 Yak-9 4./JG 52 9866-: at 4.200m
310: ??? - 13.11.1944 14:25 Yak-9 4./JG 52 0854-: at 4.000m Kotlyar Yak-1b other claims in same area and time frame as well
311: OVERCLAIM - 13.11.1944 14:30 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 637: at 4.000m
312: OVERCLAIM - 14.11.1944 11:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 494: at 2.000m
313: OVERCLAIM - 14.11.1944 11:45 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 08 471: at 800m - Only La-5 loss at 15:20, but soviets: downed by flak and 2 Fw 190s!
314: OVERCLAIM - 16.11.1944 8:45 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 368: at 4.000m
315: ~OK - 16.11.1944 8:50 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 487: at 1.000m
316: OVERCLAIM - 17.11.1944 14:25 Boston III 4./JG 52 98 584: at 2.000m - Hungarian Capt. Pottyondy claimed a Boston at Ocsa where the soviets confirmed their loss, his German wingman, Hartmann claimed another Boston closer to Budapest where soviets confirmed none. NO MORE Boston loss this day, other than a ferry accident at the Romanian border...
317: OVERCLAIM - 22.11.1944 11:40 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 453: at 3.500m
318: OK - 22.11.1944 11:45 La-5 4./JG 52 98 452: at 4.500m

Most of his claims (with the given times and locations) cannot be matched to the soviet losses, described with details in the soviet reports. I closed Hartmann's case for myself once and for all as most of his biographies are completely wrong about his (real) victories, no matter who wrote them. Certainly I am not saying that he did not get credit for 352, what I am saying is that most of that 352 was wrong and perhaps he wasn't even among the 10 best German fighter pilots of WWII. (I have no idea why he was chosen for such a statistical propaganda of the Luftwaffe.) Certainly to get a more accurate picture of his WWII career his other claims should be checked, which are out of my focus and research. So please, anyone who can, come forth and help to clarify this issue.
Cheers,

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 23rd May 2016 at 15:28.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 16:18
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: German day fighter top aces by JG

Always happy to help...

(...a big acknowledgement to yourself and Nokose by the way....)

Otherwise, the silence on this matter is deafening. Funny how they all go quiet once the speculation ends....
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Old 23rd May 2016, 16:30
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: German day fighter top aces by JG

And here's at least one discrepancy I have found:

27.10.44
Previously thought to be 2912 ("29-292-12")/"29" of 2 AE, 150 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut, now thought to be an overclaim….

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...=1262&page=11; http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...d=1#post218714
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Old 23rd May 2016, 17:13
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: German day fighter top aces by JG

Yes, Knut was downed in his Saratov-built early Yak-3 (№3912) by 16 Fw 190s and 4 Bf 109s at 15:42 (Moscow time, - 13:42 local) and was injured. His opponent was most likely Fritz Schröter (Stab.I/SG 10, Fw 190F) at 13:30 as per Tony Wood's list. NO WAY he was downed by Hartmann at 10:16....!

"15:42 6 Як-3 вед подп-к Боровой Н-2000 м с аэр Господский Двор прикрывала войска Наиредьхаза. Встретили 16 ФВ-190 и 4 Ме-109. Прикрывал ведущего во время атаки, сам был атакован и сбит. / Сбил 1 Ме-109 и сам был сбит, ожоги лица и рук. Выпрыгнул на парашюте южнее Ниредьхаза. (Nyíregyháza, Hungary) Вскоре был забран местными мадьярами и передан немцам. 29.10.44 был направлен Мишкольц (Miskolc), допрос, пото м в Будапешт, сначала в тюрьму, потом в госпиталь военнопленных. Вначале в Буде, потом в Пеште. Там встретил Сисько. 2.12.44 эвакуация госпиталя в Дьер (Győr, Hungary)."

By the way, see Knut's and their Yak-3s pic from the front newspaper of Knut's 5th soviet Air Army (April, 1945 issue).

Cheers,
Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 8th February 2018 at 22:22.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 17:31
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Re: German day fighter top aces by JG

"Hartmann's claims are usually 1-2 hrs off"

Were the USSR and the Germans using the same time zone, or did the Germans stick to Berlin time? There were periods on the western front when the Allies and Germans were one or two hours apart, depending on when they changed from summer to winter, for example.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 17:57
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: German day fighter top aces by JG

Hi Nick,
The 2 hrs time zone difference between the soviet and German reports seems to be constant (in Hungary), plus Berlin and Budapest are both in the same time zone.
(But in Knut's case, for instance, it is still much more difference than that and his Yak-3 was the ONLY YAK COMBAT LOSS in the air on October 27, 1944 for the 5 VA covering the Nyiregyhaza area. The other 2 Yaks of 513 IAP on Debrecen airfield (1 Yak-1b - №20150 - written off by October 27, 1944, 1 Yak-9T - № 2515338, written off by the November 2, 1944 mechanical report) were destroyed on the ground... 8 Bf 109s and 6 Fw 190s' low level strafing on Debrecen airfield:

- destroyed 1 Yak-1b, and 1 Yak-9 from 513 IAP on the ground, injured 4 people (including Yak-9 pilot, A. P. Kutuzov+),
- burned 3 930 NBAP Po-2/U-2: (№8257, №127107, №167109), while damaging 7,
- damaged 2 451 ShAP IL-2s,
- damaged 2 18 TAP planes. From readiness only one soviet Yak-1b could take off under heavy fire...)

Sorry, no excuse for Hartmann...

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 23rd May 2016 at 20:36.
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