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  #1  
Old 25th May 2019, 11:46
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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14°FG on 22/05/43

Hello

In MAW vol.4 (Shores and Co...),is mentioned:2 P-38(14°FG) shot down by JG27 an JG53,p.46
But p.47,only one P-38(US Casualties) is referenced lost (14°FG),Lt John C.Henry.

Really two lost? or one of the many mistakes,confusions in MAW?

Michel
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  #2  
Old 25th May 2019, 13:08
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: 14°FG on 22/05/43

Quote:
Originally Posted by focusfocus View Post
Hello

In MAW vol.4 (Shores and Co...),is mentioned:2 P-38(14°FG) shot down by JG27 an JG53,p.46
But p.47,only one P-38(US Casualties) is referenced lost (14°FG),Lt John C.Henry.

Really two lost? or one of the many mistakes,confusions in MAW?

Michel
Here is a Database that mentions an extra casualty (copy-paste into browser):

http://raf-112-squadron.org/14thfghonor_roll42_43.html

...as you can see, the other casualty was Buren J Snyder of 49th FS, 14th FG POW (definitely attributed to an enemy fighter)

Regards
Nick
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  #3  
Old 25th May 2019, 22:49
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: 14°FG on 22/05/43

Hello,
Am I wrong ? Macr 16389 is for a P40(?) P51A 43-6289 (Boylan) of the 23 FG 76 FSfor date 29-12-43.
Also noted as -
Made 16389 for P38 of the 14FG/49FS,(Little) on the 20-05-43.

Why would these two be noted in that report as a/c type, FG and date are in no way matched ?

Alex

Last edited by Alex Smart; 25th May 2019 at 23:53.
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  #4  
Old 26th May 2019, 00:01
Russell Russell is offline
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Re: 14°FG on 22/05/43

Nick

MAW 4 has Snyder lost on 21st May, as was Little, and only one lost on 22nd. The differences between the numbers in the matrix and the text is quite simple if somewhat embarrassing, matrix changes over time, text isn't altered to match. Nor at the final edit stage, was the text checked carefully enough to see if it matches the matrix. A cause of intense annoyance to the team which we are constantly striving to fix... As to Alex's point on MACRs, the 1943 MACRs can be all over the place as it appears at some point the filing system fell apart. Thus the large number of pages not attributed to a MACR but listed as 1943 or 1944.

Regards

Russell

Last edited by Russell; 26th May 2019 at 00:04. Reason: Clarity and spelling
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  #5  
Old 26th May 2019, 00:18
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: 14°FG on 22/05/43

Hello Russell,
Not related but have you any explanation as to MACR numbers 16561 through to 16598 ? I cannot find any within this block of MACR's
Alex
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  #6  
Old 26th May 2019, 12:25
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: 14°FG on 22/05/43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell View Post
Nick

MAW 4 has Snyder lost on 21st May, as was Little, and only one lost on 22nd. The differences between the numbers in the matrix and the text is quite simple if somewhat embarrassing, matrix changes over time, text isn't altered to match. Nor at the final edit stage, was the text checked carefully enough to see if it matches the matrix. A cause of intense annoyance to the team which we are constantly striving to fix... As to Alex's point on MACRs, the 1943 MACRs can be all over the place as it appears at some point the filing system fell apart. Thus the large number of pages not attributed to a MACR but listed as 1943 or 1944.

Regards

Russell
Russell

I am still confused.
You have 14th FG flying an escort mission on the 21st
You have 14th FG flying an escort mission on the 22nd
I fully understand why your mistakes happen, but can you just tell us who was lost at which date please? The names mentioned are only in your Matrixes and not in your text!

The home page referred to by Nick H. list
Little on the 20th
Henry and Snyder on the 22nd

MAW 4 lists
Little and Snyder on the 21st (+ Forster)
Henry on the 22nd

Cheers
Stig
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Old 26th May 2019, 13:49
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: 14°FG on 22/05/43

Yes, Stig has a point. This is hard to figure out...
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  #8  
Old 27th May 2019, 06:40
Russell Russell is offline
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Re: 14°FG on 22/05/43

This is what we have for 14th FG losses in mid May 1943.

19th May 43
49th FS/14th FG P-38 ‘40’ shot down by Bf 109 near Trapani at approx. 1245; 1/Lt Frank C.Howk Jr KiA
49th FS/14th FG P-38 ‘34’ shot down by Bf 109 near Trapani at approx. 1245; 1/Lt John L.Wolford KiA

21 May 43
49th FS/14th FG P-38 escort to Castelvetrano, last seen on fire SE Marettimo Island at approx. 1015; Lt B.J.Snyder PoW
49th FS/14th FG P-38 last seen on the tail of a Me 109 at approx.1015, SW coast of Sicily; Lt Albert H.Little KiA
49th FS/14th FG P-38 damaged in combat with Bf 109s, force-landed at La Sebala on return; Lt Forster safe

22 May 43
37th FS/14th FG P-38 FTR from SE Favignana Island, 1255-1700; Lt John C.Henry Jr KiA

They are what is in the matrix. Assume that if the text differs from the matrix the text is almost always going to be incorrect. We also certainly considered what is on the 112 Sqn Tribute site, but there are frequent occasions when we differ from what is on that site.

Frank Olynyk may wish to comment, as he was the prime source of the data. He provided a spreadsheet for all US fighter losses covered by the time frame of Volume 4. Lt John Henry lost on the 22nd as an example was in the spreadsheet as deceased on 23 May 1944, but with no details.
The USAAF tended to assume a date of death a year and a day or so after a pilot was reported missing (that is they generally went from the date of the report of the loss, not the actual date of the loss) and nothing further had been heard about the missing man being a POW. Hence further research turned up Henry was lost 22 May 1943.

As to Alex's query on the high numbers regarding the MACR reports, I do not know.

We really do appreciate such questions and feedback, about inconsistencies puzzles or omissions.

I have just spent six weeks in the National Archives in London looking at among other things, the RAF Air 81 casualty reports, which were not available when we did Vol 1. They are now available up to mid Aug 1941.
They will add a lot of detail as to a/c serials, location and time of loss and ultimate fate of the crew. An updates/errata section is aimed at being in Vol 5.

Regards

Russell.
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  #9  
Old 27th May 2019, 08:06
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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MACR System

The MACR system officially started on July 1, 1943. It must be noted that these reports are for Missing Air Crewmen, not missing/destroyed Aircraft. Some units filed MACRs for losses that occurred a month or two previous. But from July 1 onwards, there should be a MACR for any crewman who failed to return, but it is not guaranteed. For example, on August 12, 1944, in preparation for the invasion of Southern France, the 332nd FG lost five aircraft: Johnson (DED), Daniels (POW), Jefferson (POW), Macon (POW), Gordon (KIA). Of these, only Johnson has a MACR (7469). The MACR form was filled out in duplicate (five or more copies), with five copies to be sent to AAF HQ in Washington. The bomber groups frequently have a copy of the MACR with their mission reports, along with supporting documents. I have not yet found an MACRs with any fighter group reports. I have found two otherwise "lost" MACRs in the IDPF for crewmembers. What I suspect has happened with the missing MACRs above for the 332nd FG is that they were mailed in one package to Washington, and lost en route. I do not know if they were sent by ship or by plane. Once a MACR got to Washington it would be assigned a number (this is an assumption, but I think it would be impossible for a given numbered Air Force to assign a number and avoid duplication by a different numbered Air Force.)

With regard to the wildly out of sequence MACR numbers, these would be prepared long after the event. They would be triggered by a letter from a parent or widow a year or more later, typically all the way to the top to Gen. Arnold, asking for information on the casualty. This would result in the request being passed down the chain of command, back to the casualty's unit, asking for a report "like a MACR" on the situation, which usually meant that an actual MACR form was used (which is why some MACRs cover a casualty who is not in fact missing). Frequently these late MACRs are incomplete, missing the aircraft, engine and machine gun serials. This is because, a year or more after the event, the unit may not have those old records. Possibly lost, possibly sent off to storage, or sent back to the US.

For those using Fold3 to obtain MACRs, there are frequent cases where the MACR exists, but cannot be found there. Anytime three sequential MACRs are missing, you can assume that they were all on the same microfiche card, which they failed to process. There is also an entire block of MACRs from 3479 to 3724 that are missing from Fold3. NARA is in the process of loading the MACRs from Fold3 into their online catalog. They intend to digitize the missing MACRs and load them as well, but the timeframe is not stated.

I might also note that the "year and a day" late casualty dates are a US judicial system standard. A year and a day after someone "goes missing", they can be legally declared dead (DED in military terms) and their will can be probated, as well as other legal steps.

Enjoy!

Frank.
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Last edited by Frank Olynyk; 27th May 2019 at 08:10. Reason: Year and a day note
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  #10  
Old 28th May 2019, 10:39
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: 14°FG on 22/05/43

Thank You Russell and Frank

So, matrix correct and only one lost P-38 from 14FG and not two as stated in the text on page 46.

I confess both of you (and all the others as well of course) are doing a top notch job with these books. A living tribute to you all as researchers.
I am already looking forward to Vol 5

Thanks again
Cheers
Stig
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