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  #1  
Old 24th August 2008, 01:04
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Was Fw. Werner Stapel JG52 an ace?

I’ve seen several photos of a Bf-109F allegedly flown by Fw. Werner Stapel of 7/JG52 in 1941 showing at least 8 victory bars. However, he is not on any of the ace lists I’ve come across. Perhaps the photos show him flying someone else’s mount. If anyone could clarify, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks ahead of time for your trouble,

Rob Romero
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Old 24th August 2008, 06:41
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Nokose Nokose is offline
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Re: Was Fw. Werner Stapel JG52 an ace?

Rob,
All I found before his death on 16Oct41 27km W of Kharkov is the following
25Sep41 14:45 DB-3 (1st)
04Oct41 07:25 R-10 (2nd)
Hope that helps.
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Old 24th August 2008, 18:22
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Re: Was Fw. Werner Stapel JG52 an ace?

In a word, no. The plane does not appear to be Stapfel's regular machine, but that of another more well-known ace. The date's for all the claims are shown in one photo of the tail and should be easy to match with a claims list. I'll leave the fun of figuring out who it is to you.
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Old 24th August 2008, 21:41
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Re: Was Fw. Werner Stapel JG52 an ace?

O.K. Jim,

I’ve checked both Tony Woods lists and yours for the following dates. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be any info for JG52 on these dates. Nor does the aircraft seem to be a transfer from another unit as aces making multiple claims on the correct dates, do not correspond for all dates. Any more pointers or suggestions?

Rob Romero

24 Jun 40 –Westfront Claim
24-6-1940 0:00:00,"Fw.",,"Ertel","6.","JG 77","Blenheim","W. Stavanger","14.00"," 2"," 64","yes","OKL",,"Prien/Bock",
24.06.40 Fw. Ertel: 2 6./JG 77 Blenheim £ westl. Stavanger 14.00 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 3 - 64
26 Jun 41 –East front Claim
26.06.41 Maj. Günther Lützow Stab/JG 3 SB-3 £ - 13.20 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.80
26.06.41 Ofw. Otto Schulz 4./JG 27 SB-3 £ - 09.25 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.37
26.06.41 Ltn. Arthur Schacht 4./JG 27 SB-3 £ - 09.50 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.38
26.06.41 Ofw. Otto Schulz 4./JG 27 SB-3 £ - 14.40 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.39
26.06.41 Uffz. Horst Reuter 5./JG 27 Tief. Flzg. £ - 13.56 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.33
26.06.41 Oblt. Hermann Kohl 9./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.55 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.86
26.06.41 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Schnell 9./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.55 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.87
26.06.41 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Schnell 9./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 15.50 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.88
26.06.41 Ofw. Edmund Wagner 9./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 15.50 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.35
26.06.41 Ofw. Edmund Wagner 9./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 15.50 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.36
26.06.41 Fw. Heinz Klöpper 11./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.48 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.23
26.06.41 Uffz. Helmut Jurgens 11./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.49 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.24
26.06.41 Fw. Erwin Janke 11./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 11.03 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.25
26.06.41 Oblt. Franz Hahn 11./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 11.04 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.26
26.06.41 Fw. Karl-Heinz Kempf 7./JG 54 SB-2 £ - 19.25 Film C. 2036/II Nr.69 281/42
26.06.41 Ltn. Peter von Maleport 7./JG 54 SB-2 £ - 19.26 Film C. 2036/II Nr.72 168/42
26.06.41 Fw. Karl-Heinz Kempf 7./JG 54 SB-2 £ - 19.26 Film C. 2036/II Nr.69 281/42
26.06.41 Uffz. Walter Saynisch 7./JG 54 SB-2 £ - 19.26 Film C. 2036/II Nr.72 168/42
26.06.41 Fw. Karl-Heinz Kempf 7./JG 54 SB-2 £ - 19.27 Film C. 2036/II Nr.69 281/42
26.06.41 Uffz. Walter Saynisch 7./JG 54 SB-2 £ - 19.27 Film C. 2036/II Nr.72 168/42
26.06.41 Ltn. Max-Hellmuth Ostermann 7./JG 54 DB-3 £ - 18.32 Film C. 2036/II Nr.85 198/42
26.06.41 Ltn. Peter von Maleport 7./JG 54 SB-2 £ - 19.28 Film C. 2036/II Nr.72 168/42
26.06.41 Fw. Karl-Heinz Kempf 7./JG 54 SB-2 £ - 19.30 Film C. 2036/II Nr.69 281/42
26.06.41 Hptm. Herbert Ihlefeld Stab I./JG 77 I-16 £ - 09.10 Film C. 2031/I Anerk: Nr. -
26.06.41 Hptm. Herbert Ihlefeld Stab I./JG 77 SB-2 £ - 09.20 Film C. 2031/I Anerk: Nr. -
8 Jul 41 –Two East front Claims
8-7-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Erhard","Braune","7.","JG 27","SB-2","NW Gorodok","18.33"," 6"," 174","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 17","Prien/Bock",
8-7-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Erbo Graf von","Kageneck","9.","JG 27","SB-2","W. Witebsk","06.08"," 22"," 172","yes","C. 2036/II","Nr.68 738/41","Prien/Bock",
8-7-1941 0:00:00,"Fw.","Otto","Schultz","4.","JG 51","SB-2","S. Walki","19.20"," 6"," 305","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 81","Prien/Bock",
8-7-1941 0:00:00,"Uffz.","Heinrich","Zimmermann","9.","JG 51","DB-3","-","19.15"," 1st"," 323","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 100","Prien/Bock",
8-7-1941 0:00:00,"Fw.","Herbert","Friebel","12.","JG 51","SB-2","-","11.40"," 6"," 253","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 60","Prien/Bock",
08.07.41 Oblt. Erhard Braune 7./JG 27 SB-2 £ - 18.33 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.17
08.07.41 Oblt. Erbo Graf von Kageneck 9./JG 27 SB-2 £ - 06.08 Film C. 2036/II Nr.68 738/41
08.07.41 Fw. Otto Schultz 4./JG 51 SB-2 £ - 19.20 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.81
08.07.41 Uffz. Heinrich Zimmermann 9./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 19.15 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.100
08.07.41 Fw. Herbert Friebel 12./JG 51 SB-2 £ - 11.40 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.60
11 Aug 41 –East front Claim
11-8-1941 0:00:00,"Ofw.","Franz","Blazytko","9.","JG 27","I-16 Rata","W. Dubnja","06.46"," 21"," 298","yes","C. 2036/II","Nr.86 474/42","Prien/Bock",
11-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Horst","Geyer","Stab II.","JG 51","I-61","-","14.48"," 11"," 403","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 22","Prien/Bock",
11-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Erich","Hohagen","4.","JG 51","I-61","-","14.46"," 26"," 402","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 111","Prien/Bock",
11-8-1941 0:00:00,"Fw.","Wilhelm","Mink","5.","JG 51","I-18","-","07.05"," 12"," 401","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 117","Prien/Bock",
11-8-1941 0:00:00,"Ofw.","Edmund","Wagner","9.","JG 51","I-16 Rata","-","11.00"," 18"," 437","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 39","Prien/Bock",
11-8-1941 0:00:00,"Ofw.","Edmund","Wagner","9.","JG 51","I-15","-","11.20"," 19"," 438","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 40","Prien/Bock",
11.08.41 Ofw. Franz Blazytko 9./JG 27 I-16 £ - 06.46 Film C. 2036/II Nr.86 474/42
11.08.41 Oblt. Horst Geyer Stab II./JG 51 I-61 £ - 14.48 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.22
11.08.41 Oblt. Erich Hohagen 4./JG 51 I-61 £ - 14.46 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.111
11.08.41 Fw. Wilhelm Mink 5./JG 51 I-61 £ - 07.05 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.117
11.08.41 Ofw. Edmund Wagner 9./JG 51 I-16 £ - 11.00 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.39
11.08.41 Ofw. Edmund Wagner 9./JG 51 I-15 £ - 11.20 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.40
18 Aug 41 –East front Claim
18-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Erich","Hohagen","Stab II.","JG 51","I-61","-","08.05"," 27"," 407","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 24","Prien/Bock",
18-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Hans","Mihlan","Stab II.","JG 51","Pe-2","-","08.10"," 6"," 408","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 25","Prien/Bock",
18-8-1941 0:00:00,"Uffz.","Otto","Kittel","2.","JG 54","I-18","-","06.00"," 4"," 197","yes","C. 2036/II","Nr.87 077/42","Prien/Bock",
18-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Siegfried Graf von","Matuschka","2.","JG 54","I-18","-","05.55"," 9"," 196","yes","C. 2036/II","Nr.87 077/42","Prien/Bock",
18-8-1941 0:00:00,"Ltn.","Max-Hellmuth","Ostermann","7.","JG 54","I-16 Rata","-","05.25"," 26"," 308","yes","C. 2031/I","Nr.87 080/42","Prien/Bock",
18-8-1941 0:00:00,"Ltn.","Max-Hellmuth","Ostermann","7.","JG 54","I-16 Rata","-","11.02"," 27"," 309","yes","C. 2031/I","Nr.87 080/42","Prien/Bock",
18-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Karl-Gottfried","Nordmann","Stab IV.","JG 51","I-15","N. Baltutino","17.15"," 41"," 453","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 32","Prien/Bock",
18.08.41 Oblt. Erich Hohagen Stab II./JG 51 I-61 £ - 08.05 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.24
18.08.41 Oblt. Heinz Mihlan Stab II./JG 51 Pe-2 £ - 08.10 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.25
18.08.41 Uffz. Otto Kittel 2./JG 54 I-18 £ - 06.00 Film C. 2036/II Nr.87 077/42
18.08.41 Oblt. Siegfried Graf von Matuschka 2./JG 54 I-18 £ - 05.55 Film C. 2036/II Nr.87 077/42
18.08.41 Ltn. Max-Hellmuth Ostermann 7./JG 54 I-16 £ - 05.25 Film C. 2031/I Nr.87 080
18.08.41 Ltn. Max-Hellmuth Ostermann 7./JG 54 I-16 £ - 11.02 Film C. 2031/I Nr.87 080
18.08.41 Oblt. Karlfried Nordmann Stab IV./JG 51 I-15 £ - 17.15 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.32
31 Aug 41 –Two East front Claims?
31-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Heinrich","Krafft","3.","JG 51","SB-3","-","10.25"," 17"," 405","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 60","Prien/Bock",
31-8-1941 0:00:00,"Fw.","Theodor","Stebner","3.","JG 51","SB-3","-","10.25"," 4"," 406","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 61","Prien/Bock",
31-8-1941 0:00:00,"Uffz.","Wilhelm","Theimann","3.","JG 51","SB-3","-","10.30"," 7"," 407","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 62","Prien/Bock",
31-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Heinrich","Krafft","3.","JG 51","SB-3","-","10.31"," 18"," 408","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 63","Prien/Bock",
31-8-1941 0:00:00,"Fw.","Theodor","Stebner","3.","JG 51","SB-3","-","10.35"," 5"," 409","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 64","Prien/Bock",
31-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Heinrich","Krafft","3.","JG 51","SB-3","-","10.36"," 19"," 410","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 65","Prien/Bock",
31-8-1941 0:00:00,"Uffz.","Egon","Große","3.","JG 51","Pe-2","-","16.05"," 5"," 411","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 66","Prien/Bock","DB-3?"
31-8-1941 0:00:00,"Oblt.","Horst","Geyer","Stab II.","JG 51","I-61","-","10.35"," 14"," 431","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 28","Prien/Bock",
31-8-1941 0:00:00,"Ofw.","Adolf","Borchers","10.","JG 51","I-18","-","17.30","-","-",,"C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 62",,4 Sep 41
31.08.41 Uffz. Wilhelm Theimann 3./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.24 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.59
31.08.41 Oblt. Heinz Krafft 3./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.25 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.60
31.08.41 Fw. Theodor Stebner 3./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.25 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.61
31.08.41 Uffz. Wilhelm Theimann 3./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.30 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.62
31.08.41 Oblt. Heinz Krafft 3./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.31 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.63
31.08.41 Fw. Theodor Stebner 3./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.35 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.64
31.08.41 Oblt. Heinz Krafft 3./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.36 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.65
31.08.41 Uffz. Erich Große 3./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 16.05 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.66
31.08.41 Oblt. Horst Geyer Stab II./JG 51 I-61 £ - 10.35 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.28
31.08.41 Ofw. Adolf Borchers 10./JG 51 I-18 £ - 17.30 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.62
7 Sep 41 –Two East front Claims
08.07.41 Oblt. Erhard Braune 7./JG 27 SB-2 £ - 18.33 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.17
08.07.41 Oblt. Erbo Graf von Kageneck 9./JG 27 SB-2 £ - 06.08 Film C. 2036/II Nr.68 738/41
08.07.41 Fw. Otto Schultz 4./JG 51 SB-2 £ - 19.20 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.81
08.07.41 Uffz. Heinrich Zimmermann 9./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 19.15 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.100
08.07.41 Fw. Herbert Friebel 12./JG 51 SB-2 £ - 11.40 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.60
07.09.41 Ofw. Franz Blazytko 9./JG 27 Il-2 £ - 18.35 Film C. 2036/II Nr.87 389/42
07.09.41 Ltn. Rudolf Weinfurtner 9./JG 27 I-16 £ - 18.35 Film C. 2036/II Nr.87 389/42
07.09.41 Ltn. Max-Hellmuth Ostermann 7./JG 54 I-18 £ - 14.25 Film C. 2031/I Nr.88 736/42
07.09.41 Ltn. Max-Hellmuth Ostermann 7./JG 54 I-18 £ - 14.30 Film C. 2031/I Nr.90 281/42
07.09.41 Fw. Robert Rohr 1. (Erg)/JG 54 I-153 £ - 09.03 Film C. 2031/I Nr.90 438/42
07.09.41 Ltn. Hans Strelow 5./JG 51 SB-2 £ - 17.17 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.133
07.09.41 Fw. Wilhelm Mink 5./JG 51 SB-2 £ - 06.05 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.132
07.09.41 Oblt. Hartmann Grasser 5./JG 51 SB-3 £ - 17.20 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.134
07.09.41 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Schnell 9./JG 51 Pe-2 £ - 12.25 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.160
07.09.41 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Schnell 9./JG 51 I-61 £ - 17.40 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.161
07.09.41 Ofw. Franz Barten 11./JG 51 SB-2 £ - 17.12 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.83
13 Sep 41 –East front Claim
13-9-1941 0:00:00,"Fw.","Otto","Tange","5.","JG 51","DB-3","15km E. Konotop","10.03"," 23"," 469","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 52","Prien/Bock",
13-9-1941 0:00:00,"Fw.","Otto","Tange","5.","JG 51","DB-3","20km E. Konotop","10.07"," 24"," 470","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 53","Prien/Bock",
13-9-1941 0:00:00,"Uffz.","Kurt","Knappe","5.","JG 51","DB-3","E. Konotop","10.10"," 5"," 471","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 137","Prien/Bock",
13-9-1941 0:00:00,"Fw.","Otto","Tange","5.","JG 51","DB-3","27km E. Konotop","10.12"," 25"," 472","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 54","Prien/Bock",
13-9-1941 0:00:00,"Ltn.","Hans","Strelow","5.","JG 51","DB-3","-","13.08"," 10"," 473","yes","C. 2036/II","Anerk: Nr. 138","Prien/Bock",
13.09.41 Fw. Otto Tange 5./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.03 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.52
13.09.41 Fw. Otto Tange 5./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.07 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.53
13.09.41 Uffz. Kurt Knappe 5./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.10 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.137
13.09.41 Fw. Otto Tange 5./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 10.12 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.54
13.09.41 Ltn. Hans Strelow 5./JG 51 DB-3 £ - 13.08 Film C. 2036/II Anerk: Nr.138
Attached Files
File Type: doc 8 Stapel or Stapfel Rudder 7-JG52.doc (463.5 KB, 38 views)
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  #5  
Old 24th August 2008, 22:23
Tom Semenza Tom Semenza is offline
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Tom Semenza
Re: Was Fw. Werner Stapel JG52 an ace?

Rob,

I think that Fw. Josef Zwernemann is a probable candidate here. While all of the dates are not the same, the overall fit is pretty good. Dates here are from Prien, et al., Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Luftwaffe.

24.07.40 (1.) Spitfire
26.06.41 (2.) DB-3
8.07.41 (3.) DB-3
8.07.41 (4.) DB-3
14.08.41 (5.) I-16
19.08.41 (6.) I-26(Jak-1)
31.08.41 (7.) I-16
31.08.41 (8.) I-16
31.08.41 (9.) I-16
7.09.41 (10.) SB-3
7.09.41 (11.) I-17(MiG-3)
13.09.41 (12.) V-11(Il-2)

Regards,

Tom
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Old 25th August 2008, 01:30
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Re: Was Fw. Werner Stapel JG52 an ace?

That's a bingo. I apologize to Rob for that. I forgot that my update and addenda to Tony Woods files has not been updated for so long - can't seem to get a response from the guy who's hosting Tony's stuff. Unfortunately Tony's list is far from complete, not due to any fault of on his part, but from the limitations of the docs he was working with. As Tom says, the missing info comes from the Prien team's published data in the Jagdfliegerverbaende series. Believe me I know its hurts from a financial standpoint, especially given that the dollar is in toilet primarily thanks to our current do nothing administration that benefits anyone economically but their big money buddies, but for claims, losses and photos, this series is essential for anyone with a claimed serious interest in LW fighters.
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Old 25th August 2008, 03:37
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Re: Was Fw. Werner Stapel JG52 an ace?

Thanks to all for helping resolve this mystery

Rob Romero
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