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Old 16th December 2012, 23:24
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork

Hello,

Jochen Prien has sent an urgent request for help with the artwork for an eagle/hawk insignia that he wants to illustrate in his latest JFV (Purple) book 12/II, which is ready to go except for this.

Excerpts from his email to me:

"Attached you will find two photos of Bf 109 Fs of I./JG 52 with an enigmatic emblem, quite similar to a number of other emblems to be seen on the a/c of various Gruppen between 1940 and 1943....I need (this) for the addendum which will feature an extensive coverage of the emblems of I./JG 52 in the 1941/42 period. Attached too is a scan of an old print showing the emblem of 12./JG 2 in 1943, which to me seems to be very similar if not identical, albeit mirrored..."

In addition to these is an emblem noted by Robert Szoltyk, which Jochen has also supplied for attachment: Robert says: "I think that another of such "eagle" emblem was on (the a/c) of Lt. Hans Fuss (6./JG3): see pictures nos.082, 083 in JFV 9/II."

I've have made enlargements of these and cropped them for attachment to this email. The problem is that these images are too indistinct or incomplete to get good fix on the details, which look like an eagle, hawk or some other bird of prey, snatching something in its talons, One "something" looks like a cluster of white balls. This may or may not be related to the 12./JG2 emblem from 1943.

So can anyone help by supplying a much sharper image of the emblem that appeared on the I./JG52 a/c or the 6./JG3 a/c? If we can find suitable images from which to work, we have an artist standing by to complete the artwork necessary so that Jochen can quickly put JFV 12/II to bed.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-2hz...-2hzKfT9-S.jpg
http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-n4h...-n4hkwp4-S.jpg
http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-Hn3...-Hn3kJZc-S.jpg
http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-GN9...-GN9ms3h-S.jpg

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator
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Old 17th December 2012, 23:39
edwest edwest is offline
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Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork

Hello Larry,

Going off your last image link, it appears the bird of prey is carrying a badly damaged roundel as a trophy of a successful kill. Identifying the bird, which is quite stylized, requires looking at the shape of the head and the tail as key features in my view. So here are a few image links which I hope will prove helpful or inspire others to provide further input.

Hawk

http://www.google.com/search?q=image...w=1280&bih=931


Eagle

http://www.google.com/search?q=image...w=1280&bih=931



Best,
Ed

Last edited by edwest; 18th December 2012 at 00:35.
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Old 18th December 2012, 03:18
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork

Ed,

Thanx for the bird images. I'll certainly make these available if we can get a sharper image to work from. Yes, the roundel is clear and that is not the image that we're having trouble with, it is the one of the rear fuselage of the first two, and possibly the third partial photo. We really can't be sure what the bird is clutching in its talons. Your effort to be helpful is appreciated.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
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Old 18th December 2012, 03:44
edwest edwest is offline
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Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork

Larry,

Have you contacted Axel Urbanke?



Best, Ed
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Old 18th December 2012, 07:43
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork

Larry,
To me it looks like the image 38 on page 26, for 12./JG 2 (Summer 42-Autumn 43), that appears in Barry Ketley's Luftwaffe Emblems 1939-1945, Flight Recorder Publications, (Crecy, 2012).

Enjoy!

Frank.
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Old 18th December 2012, 08:54
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Clint Mitchell Clint Mitchell is offline
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Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork

On the EDIT: SECOND image I believe there is either damage to the fuselage or an anomaly on the photo/neg which is obscuring the roundel. It is clearly the same emblem as depicted in the EDIT: FIRST image which is carrying a roundel. It appears that either the stencils for the more common variation of the emblem (image 4) were lost which meant another emblem artist had to interpret the original emblem, using maybe just paint brushes this time around or he thought he could do a better job and has redrawn the emblem in his own style. For me both styles of the emblem contain the same elements: Eagle/Hawk clutching a damaged roundel in it's talons. The only issue for me on the new variation is the distance between the roundel and the bird. Proportionately the legs and talons are going to be quite long compared to the position and size of the bird.
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Old 18th December 2012, 17:22
edwest edwest is offline
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Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork

Not to add confusion to the issue, but photos one and two clearly - to me anyway - show the wings in an outstretched position with a strange white highlighting along the edges, as if a strong light was being projected from behind (?) the bird. You'll note that the dark color of the wings appears inside their outer contour.

Could this be a personal emblem? Photo number 4 is clearly identified but does not line up with one and two.



Ed
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Old 18th December 2012, 17:56
ChrisS ChrisS is offline
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Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork

Hi Ed

The photos that Larry has shared are from three different airframes. I believe the emblem is a simplfied version of the previous 3./JG52 more elaborate emblem of an eagle carrying a clutch of roundels over the sea inside a shield

Last edited by ChrisS; 10th October 2013 at 15:03.
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Old 18th December 2012, 19:07
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork

Chris et.al.,

Good suggestion. However, I still think that we need a better resolution photo of this insignia to be able to accurately render a copy for Jochen's JFV book. I'm still hoping that someone has one.

Larry
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Old 18th December 2012, 23:57
edwest edwest is offline
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Re: Need help with eagle/hawk insignia of fuselage of Bf109Es for Jochen Prien book insignia artwork

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisS View Post
Hi Ed

The photos that Larry has shared are from three different airframes. I believe the emblem is a simplfied version of the previous 3./JG52 more elaborate emblem of an eagle carrying a clutch of roundels over the sea inside a shield


Hi Chris,


I can see that, but I'm still confused about the sharp highlighting given to the bird. My thought is that if a better image is not found, then print the best photo from the above and forgo with the illustration. Just as in Luftwaffe im Focus, it appears new information and new photos appear only after publication. If I understand right, aren't corrections added in subsequent books? I don't own a single one.


Ed
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