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  #1  
Old 29th September 2008, 14:55
yogybär yogybär is offline
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Mustang losses 31.08.44 in Romania/Hungary

II./JG52 claimed 2 (or 5) Mustangs that day:
1 by Lipfert (10:20)
1 by Koch (10:17) and
3 by Fönnekold (who was himself reportedly killed by Mustangs on that very day during landing). But that is "only" stated by www.jg52.de .

Are there any losses recorded on that day for Mustangs, so that this can be confirmed?
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Old 29th September 2008, 15:18
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Mustang losses 31.08.44 in Romania/Hungary

I wrote a very detailed study on this combat day, including a detailed list of losses, which was published in Rumania, Hungary and, lately, in France, in Air Magazine (I haven't seen it myself):
http://www.aerostories.org/~aerobiblio/article2093.html
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Old 29th September 2008, 20:34
Leendert Leendert is offline
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Re: Mustang losses 31.08.44 in Romania/Hungary

Yogibär,

Perhaps this thread on a sister website also gives some answers: http://www.lwag.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-914.html

Regards,

Leendert
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Old 29th September 2008, 22:46
yogybär yogybär is offline
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Re: Mustang losses 31.08.44 in Romania/Hungary

Thx, Leendert!

Summary of the US-side for my own comfort:
1. The Mustangs were from the 52nd Fighter Group, 3 different squads: 2nd & 5th did low level attacks while 4th provided top cover.
The 44 (out of 48 who took off in I) P-51s claimed 7 (2x Fw190, 5x Bf109) Luftwaffe aircraft downed in air battle and some 60 destroyed on ground in 12 passes.
2. US-losses:
MACR 8627-2nd Lt. Paul D. Frazier-POW-4th FS
MACR 8628-1st Lt. Frank Edward Tomlinson-POW-2nd FS
No MACR-2nd Lt. Robert L. Davis-KIA-2nd FS
Lt. Carlson-2nd FS not lost,returned the next day.
3. If the info in Lipfert's book is right, one of the pilots from 2nd FS must have been the victorer over Fönnekold. Two of them claimed damaged 109s, a third a damaged Do217. As Fönnekold's machine was nearly undamaged, it could not have been reported as a kill. The names of the US pilots are Lts. Dorsman, McGraw
4. The 52nd FG seems to have flown a mix of P-51B and D until the end of the war. At that time, they had yellow tails (or bands similar to the Luftwaffes Eastern front marking) on bare metal.
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Last edited by yogybär; 1st October 2008 at 14:08.
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Old 30th September 2008, 07:23
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Csaba B. Stenge Csaba B. Stenge is offline
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Re: Mustang losses 31.08.44 in Romania/Hungary

Jörg,

Lt. Carlson was not lost, but the other three pilots (Davis was killed, the other two were taken POW, all of them were shot down by the Messers of II./JG 52) From 2nd FS, only McCraw (not McGraw) and Dorsmann claimed damaged Messers, Clarke damaged a two mot aircraft as damaged, reported as Do 217.
52nd FG was awarded a DUC for this mission later.
Always necessary to check the possible supplements also for the genuine narrative mission reports (in this case about Carlson's fate, about additional strafing claims and about a victory credit, which was given to Lt. Nash instead of Lt. DeForest). There are some long reminiscences also from 52nd FG from this mission.
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Old 30th September 2008, 13:04
yogybär yogybär is offline
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Re: Mustang losses 31.08.44 in Romania/Hungary

Thx, so McCraw and Dorsmann are candidates for vulching Fönnekold.

Lipfert writes that he shot down two P-51 and damaged two others, so he could also be responsible for one of the unclear US-losses.
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Old 1st October 2008, 02:32
kaki3152 kaki3152 is online now
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Re: Mustang losses 31.08.44 in Romania/Hungary

I've always been interested in this combat, especially after buying Lipfert's book.
I did not know Lt. Carlson was not killed as the after action report of the 52nd FG reported:
"Lt. Carlson was last seen about 15 milesSW of the airfield at 4640N 2430E at 1035 hrs. It is believed that Lt. Carlson was in the plane seen by Capt. Ohr to be attacked by E/A over the A/D and crash on the field. Capt. Ohr identified this plane as a P-51. It is not believed that this A/C was the one flown by Capt. Davis who crashed fifteen minutes earlier. Aircraft No. QP-X"
The sortie statistics show the following:

" 48 P-51s took off from Madna at 0740 hours. Four airplanes returned early (three mechanical and one spare)44 airplanes were over the target at 14,000 feet to deck at 1005-1035 hours. One plane was lost, three are missing. 39 airplanes landed at Madna at 1335 hours. One landed at 1435 hours after refueling at Vis. One plane crashed on landing ; plane destroyed, pilot slightly injured."

SInce Lt. Carlson was not a casualty, he must have been an evader. Can anyone shed more light on this?

Also, how was it determined that Lt. Fonnekold shot down three Mustangs as reported in Obermaier "Ritterkeuztrager:Jadgflieger"?
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Old 1st October 2008, 06:16
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Csaba B. Stenge Csaba B. Stenge is offline
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Re: Mustang losses 31.08.44 in Romania/Hungary

As I told you, there are no 'unclear' US losses there. I know, what contains that genuine mission report. Lt. Carlson lost his orientation while returning (probably his radio was out of order) and landed safely at Sicily. He returned to his unit on the very next day (at 1100 hours on 1 September). No pilot or aircraft loss at all.
It was corrected on 1 September in a supplement for the narrative report. Again: always necessary to check the supplements (if there are any). If you find anywhere, that Carlson was lost, it is an error, a copy from the fresh, genuine mission report, which was compiled on 31 August, 1944 (when they did not know his exact fate).
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Old 1st October 2008, 14:06
yogybär yogybär is offline
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Re: Mustang losses 31.08.44 in Romania/Hungary

OK, Csaba, now only I see that only 3 P-51 were actually lost (to 109's). As Lipfert and Koch claimed one each, only the fate of the third remains unclear here.

Well possible that it was also a victim of Lipfert as he wrote to have damaged three P51 altogether.

Defnitely the three kills by Fönnekold are rendered unrealistic.

@ kaki: What means the word "spare" here?
Quote:
three mechanical and one spare
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Old 1st October 2008, 14:43
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Mustang losses 31.08.44 in Romania/Hungary

Joerg, spare means an extra aircraft that took off to join the formation in case of some failure. If one of the taking off aircraft would crash or became otherwise unserviceable, the spare aircraft would join the formation in its place.
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