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  #1  
Old 18th January 2018, 16:47
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Battle of Brtitain Books

It's not vitriol, it's called stating facts. And that is something you did not do, Steve, when you dismissed British aviation publishing by saying the quality died when MCP was taken over by Ian Allan.

As well as pointing you in the direction of Stephen Bungay's excellent book, I will also proffer the following:
Andy Saunders:
Bader's last flight
Stuka attack, The dive bombing assault on England during the Battle of Britain
Convoy Peewit: Blitzkrieg from the air and sea * August 1940
and a whole host of others.

Chris Goss
Luftwaffe fighter-bombers over Britain: The tip and run campaign 1942-1943
Junkers Ju 88 the Luftwaffe's most versatile aircraft
Jagdgeschwader 53 'Pik-As' Bf 109 Aces of 1940
Combat over the Mediterranean: The RAF in action against the Germans and Italians
and a whole host of others.

The Red Kite series of:
Luftwaffe Crash Archive (12 volumes)
Battle of Britain Archive (presently 5 volumes and quite a few more to go)
and the other works Red Kite have published.

Brian Cull
Battle for the Channel, The first month of the Battle of Britain 10 July - 10 August 1940 (which includes comprehensive details of the e-boat activity which supported the aerial assault on British Channel shipping)
Two more volumes to come, I believe.

Christer Bergström
The Battle of Britain, An epic conflict revisited. A book which not only calls into question the previously held beliefs about Göring, but also strives to set the record straight concerning the performance of the Bf 110 in the Battle when considered alongside the three other main fighters, and the respective claims and losses of all four.

There are others...

So you see, Steve, when the hard evidence is actually presented, your contention that (and you wrote it, nobody else) '...the quality of British aviation book publishing died when MCP were bought out by Ian Allan...' is shown to be completely without foundation.

I have to say I find it a disgrace that such a contention was made in the first place, because it denigrates the authors I have mentioned above, as well as denigrating those publishers who have supported the authors throughout their travails.
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  #2  
Old 18th January 2018, 18:02
Jukka Juutinen Jukka Juutinen is offline
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John Vasco recommended Stephen Bungay. However, according to an amazon.co.uk review, Bungay has taken too many liberties in his interpretation of many documents. The examples provided in that review are most worrisome.

And hasn't Bersgtröm's research received a lot of flak on this board as well?

Granted, neither of the above prove or disprove the original claim.

BTW, the interpretation that Steve's original claim "denigrates" those mentioned authors is, to be honest, as true as claiming the Merlin to be a rotary.
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Old 18th January 2018, 19:08
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Re: Hull, Hell and Halifax/Blanchett

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen View Post
John Vasco recommended Stephen Bungay. However, according to an amazon.co.uk review, Bungay has taken too many liberties in his interpretation of many documents. The examples provided in that review are most worrisome.
Personally, I thought his overall analysis was really illuminating and those one-star reviewers mostly seem to have expected a very different kind of book (e.g. a blow-by-blow account). what's more I can't remember any book on the Battle with a good word to say about Beppo Schmid's intelligence assessment of the RAF; Bungay isn't alone in this.

Happily it's been in paperback for years so it doesn't involve a big investment to read it and reach a view.

Quote:
BTW, the interpretation that Steve's original claim "denigrates" those mentioned authors is, to be honest, as true as claiming the Merlin to be a rotary.
Please don't pour napalm on troubled waters.

P.S. This thread started off talking about the Halifax. Time to get back on-topic perhaps?
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Old 19th January 2018, 00:14
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Re: Hull, Hell and Halifax/Blanchett

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen View Post
John Vasco recommended Stephen Bungay. However, according to an amazon.co.uk review, Bungay has taken too many liberties in his interpretation of many documents. The examples provided in that review are most worrisome.

And hasn't Bersgtröm's research received a lot of flak on this board as well?

Granted, neither of the above prove or disprove the original claim.

BTW, the interpretation that Steve's original claim "denigrates" those mentioned authors is, to be honest, as true as claiming the Merlin to be a rotary.
1. Tell me of the 'liberties' he has taken; and

2. Tell me the flak Bergström's book has received. I have my own views on the errors with regard to the Bf 110, but his assessment of other more general things (as I have pointed out in a previous post) is worthy of full consideration.
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Old 19th January 2018, 12:12
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Re: Battle of Brtitain Books

Separating these posts from the other thread has lost all continuity. Not the cleverest of things to do, IMO. The first sentence of the first post here is now in splendid isolation, and means absolutely nothing to someone coming into this thread for the first time.

Whoever moderated this needs to look at continuity, and also context, (and at the same time take a good look at themselves) since the books I referenced are not all Battle of Britain books. And all of what I said was germaine to Steve B's comment denigrating British book publishing. It is a disgrace that that thread has been sliced up and no longer covers the full defence of British publishers. Am I annoyed at it being separated? Too right I am! It smacks to me of Steve B being protected after he made a slur on British aviation book publishers. Is that what this forum has come to?

And yes, I do know what I am talking about, since I moderate a couple of forums on t'internet...
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Old 19th January 2018, 13:23
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Re: Battle of Brtitain Books

For Christ's sake John, give us a break. I was just trying, in the simplest way possible, to separate out an interesting discussion of a new topic from what had started—lest we forget—as a question about a book on the Halifax. And if I had nothing else going on in my life then yes, I might have devoted time to editing or annotating the various posts to achieve seamless continuity.

P.S. Anyone who wants to edit their own posts to reflect the new thread, please feel free to do so.
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Old 19th January 2018, 15:29
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Re: Battle of Brtitain Books

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Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
For Christ's sake John, give us a break. I was just trying, in the simplest way possible, to separate out an interesting discussion of a new topic from what had started—lest we forget—as a question about a book on the Halifax. And if I had nothing else going on in my life then yes, I might have devoted time to editing or annotating the various posts to achieve seamless continuity.

P.S. Anyone who wants to edit their own posts to reflect the new thread, please feel free to do so.
Well in my view, Nick, you should have also moved post #2 from the other thread, which runs as follows:
"The key measure of this book is that it was published by Midland Counties Publications. Elsewhere you have raised questions about the quality of British aviation magazines (which are abysmal) and, in my view, the quality of British aviation book publishing died when MCP were bought out by Ian Allan.

"I would say that, back in the day, any book published by MCP was worth having. I am not a serious student of Bomber Command activities but I bought the book because I thought it was a very serious and complete study of all aspects of 4 Group.

Steve"

the pertinent part of which I have shown in bold.

And, at the risk of repeating myself, if you think it's fine for someone on this forum to post that comment (which is an utter disgrace!), then this forum, and your moderation of it, has gone down in my estimation.

Over the years on here, MANY researchers and authors have contributed freely of their research work and their knowledge to help others, and their published works have advanced the overall knowledge of WW2 aviation via the vehicle of British publishing houses. That is a fact.

I don't see you, Nick, issuing a single word of admonishment to Steve B regarding that remark, rather, you come on at me for taking him to task. If that is the way you moderate this forum, then I for one will no longer contribute a single thing of the knowledge I have garnered on matters WW2 since 1980, even if I do have the information readily to hand. You carry on pandering to the smart-arses who lob in throwaway, glib, incorrect statements, because that it what it looks like from here...
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Old 19th January 2018, 16:02
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Re: Battle of Brtitain Books

Quote:
I don't see you, Nick, issuing a single word of admonishment to Steve B regarding that remark, rather, you come on at me for taking him to task. If that is the way you moderate this forum, then I for one will no longer contribute a single thing of the knowledge I have garnered on matters WW2 since 1980, even if I do have the information readily to hand. You carry on pandering to the smart-arses who lob in throwaway, glib, incorrect statements, because that it what it looks like from here...
If in your view moderation would be better deployed against perceived stupidity than against belligerence then I will of course bear that in mind.
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Old 19th January 2018, 19:54
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Re: Battle of Brtitain Books

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Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
If in your view moderation would be better deployed against perceived stupidity than against belligerence then I will of course bear that in mind.
Explain 'stupidity' and 'belligerence', and I will make further reply.

And you still have not uttered one word against the attack on British publishing houses... Disgraceful performance from you. And you can call that last sentence anything you want, Nick.
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Old 19th January 2018, 20:07
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Re: Battle of Brtitain Books

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Originally Posted by John Vasco View Post
Explain 'stupidity' and 'belligerence', and I will make further reply.

And you still have not uttered one word against the attack on British publishing houses... Disgraceful performance from you. And you can call that last sentence anything you want, Nick.
Your representations are noted.
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