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  #11  
Old 13th October 2005, 13:44
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Re: Questions on 8th AF Swinemünde raid on 12 March 1945

Hello Chris
I have again problems in sending messages. A new try.
Thanks again for the info. It would be nice to have info on the loads of 2 and 3 AD but the most important info for me was that their loads were much the same that those of the 1 AD. Most important was that there was no Mk 81s or other frags. And source information is always welcome.
As I understand Helmut Schnatz’s article (and my knowledge on German has always been very limited and is nowadays also very rusty) is that he tries to deny the claim, which seems to have gaining ground in today’s Germany , of 23.000 killed. According to him 4.000 – 5.000 killed is a more realistic figure.
Friedrich writes that there were over 1.600 identified dead but that most victims were buried without identification. According to him the figure of 23.000 killed is from local sources but he also has his doubts and writes that maybe a ½ or a third of that number is the truth.

Thanks again
Juha
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  #12  
Old 14th October 2005, 12:03
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Re: Questions on 8th AF Swinemünde raid on 12 March 1945

Hello again Chris
according to Freeman, 1 AD as well as the other two ADs dropped appr. a half of their loads to Swinemünde and the other half on other targets which were, according to Freeman, all marshalling yards. This makes the situation more complicated because I don’t know if the loads dropped to Swinemünde were more or less identical to those dropped to other targets or not.
There is not necessary conflict with the 1 AD load list that You gave and the info Delmenhorst and Helmut Schnatz have given even if it is little bit odd to me that 1 AD would have dropped almost all of its 1000lb bombs to Swinemünde and all the lighter ones to other targets, but 100lb bombs were used mostly against marshalling yards but I think that some 1000lbs ought to be dropped to those targets as well. But this is pure speculation. When I’ll get some free time I’ll try to obtain Helmut Schnatz’s book Der Luftangriff auf Swinemünde. Dokumentation einr Tragödie, Herbig Verlag, München 2004 and read it.

Juha
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  #13  
Old 14th October 2005, 14:22
Delmenhorst Delmenhorst is offline
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Re: Questions on 8th AF Swinemünde raid on 12 March 1945

I have 661 a/c bombing Swinemünde with full fighter escort. The attack took place between 12.06 and 13.00. The total tonnage was 3216 x 1000 lb GP and 2 x 500 lb GP plus markers. The attacking force reported after the attack: 'Bombs are seen falling but no bursts are visible on completely cloud obscured photographs. Columns of smoke are seen rising through the undercast'.
I have the following units attacking:
95A 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 56 x 1000 H.E.
95B 11 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 48 x 1000 H.E.
95B 1 plane bombed - target T/O Husum M/Y 5 x 1000 H.E.
95C 13 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 63 x 1000 H.E.
100 A 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 59 x 1000 H.E.
100B 11 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 54 x 1000 H.E.
100C 13 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 64 x 1000 H.E.
486A 9 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 45 x 1000 H.E.
486B 10 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 50 x 1000 H.E.
486C 10 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 50 x 1000 H.E.
486D 9 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 45 x 1000 H.E.
34A 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
34B 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 59 x 1000 H.E.
34C 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
385A 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
385B 13 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 65 x 1000 H.E.
385C 13 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 65 x 1000 H.E.
452A 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 57 x 1000 H.E.
452B 13 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 65 x 1000 H.E.
452C 13 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 65 x 1000 H.E.
389A 10 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 44 x 1000 H.E.
389B 10 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 47 x 1000 H.E.
389C 10 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 47 x 1000 H.E.
445A 11 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 49 x 1000 H.E. 2 x 70 Incd
445B 11 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 52 x 1000 H.E. 1 x 70 Incd
445C 11 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 52 x 1000 H.E. 1 x 70 Incd
392A 10 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 52 x 1000 H.E. 4 x 70 Incd
392B 10 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 52 x 1000 H.E. 4 x 70 Incd
392C 8 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 40 x 1000 H.E. 4 x 70 Incd
93A 11 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 49 x 1000 H.E.
93B 11 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 52 x 1000 H.E.
93C 11 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 52 x 1000 H.E.
446A 9 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 44 x 1000 H.E.
446B 10 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 51 x 1000 H.E.
446C 9 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 44 x 1000 H.E.
448A 11 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 49 x 1000 H.E.
448B 10 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 45 x 1000 H.E. 1 x 70 Incd
448C 11 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 52 x 1000 H.E. 1 x 70 Incd
467A 9 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 43 x 1000 H.E.
467B 9 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 44 x 12000
467C 9 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 43 x 1000 H.E.
467D 9 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 39 x 1000 H.E. + 2 x 500 H.E.
401A 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
401B 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
401C 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
457A 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
457B 11 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 55 x 1000 H.E.
457C 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
92A 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
92B 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
92C 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
305A 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
305B 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
305C 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
306A 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
306B 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
306C 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 59 x 1000 H.E.
351A 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
351B 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 60 x 1000 H.E.
351C 12 a/c bombed - target Swinemünde Port Area 65 x 1000 H.E.
One of the participating crews was Lt B F Cummings from 95th BG. His route to and from the target was as follows:
0743 hours take of and circling BV23
0832 hours circling B 23
0609 hours over southwold
0910 hours 5227N 0148E
0922 hours 5446N 0227E
0935 hours 5305N 0313E
0945 hours 5318N 0348E
0953 hours 5333N 0417E
0953 hours 5333N 0417E
1021 hours 5406N 0600E
1037 hours met escort fighters
1055 hours B-24 aborting
1103 hours 5432N 0856E
1105 hours carpet on
1118 hours 5442N 1002E smoke screen over Schleswig
1207 hours on bombing run
1210 hours started chaff
1219 hours flak meager, barrage low, bombs away
1223 hours stopped chaff
1313 hours 5433N 1109E
1323 hours 5433N 1002E
1338 hours 5232N 0857E
1355 hours carpet off
1429 hours 5351N 0558E
1931 hours 5346N 0547E
1438 hours 5336N 0516E
1501 hours 5314N 0355E
1511 hours 5304N 0320E
1606 hours landed
A report the 15th of March states: 'The town of Swinemünde has been heavily damaged by HE. Five separate concentrations are visible. The first lies across the centre of the town causing destruction to business and residential property and cluttring roads with rubble. The second saturates the south bank of the Swine destroyeing or damaging a small factory, 3 (probable) warehouses near the boat harbour, a large number of buildings in a hutted area, and private property in the village of Ostswine. The three remaining concentrations are found in the suburbs of Der Strand, West Swine and Friedrichstater affecting small houses and hutments.
Little can be said regarding damage in the Port Area because the coaling harbour and north bank of the Swine is obscured by a smoke screen operating on the Grüne Fläcke. it is seen however that several buildings in the vicinity of the Bau Harbour have been hit and one small and one medium building near the seaplane base have been damaged'.
This was followed up with an other report the 21st of March: 'Further cover reveals moderate fresh damage mainly in the region of the naval base on the east side of the River Swine where a number of unidentified buildings have been destroyed or damaged.
There is damage in the Bau Harbour and Coaling Harbour. One liner is capsized and two m/v are sunk.
Details of damage are as follows:
Naval base: A large number of unidentified buildings of varying sizes have been either destroyed or damaged. (Assessment is somewhat hapered by only having stereo cover on small scale prints).
Coaling Harbour: On the river Swine side of the eastern quay, section of the quay has been destroyed. there are also four craters in open gound between the Coaling harbour and the Winter harbour.
Bau Harbour: A small number of craters on the N quay.
In addition to the above there is moderate business/residential damage in the area North of the entrance to the Winter and Coaling harbours. There is a very large group of craters in open ground north of the Bau Harbour.
A liner (L26 Cabania type) capsized alongside the Eichstanden Dock. One m/v 300-350' sunk in mid channel off the Boat Harbour and one m/v 330' sunk at the railway quay.

I hope that this helps you a bit forward in your research
Carsten
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  #14  
Old 14th October 2005, 15:17
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Re: Questions on 8th AF Swinemünde raid on 12 March 1945

Thanks a lot Carsten!!!
That helps a lot!!
Yes, it definitely seems that the port was the target.
And thanks for confirming that I had understood correctly the after action report from Helmut Schnatz's page.
And thanks also for the route of Lt B F Cummings' plane. I have always liked that kind of details, from those one can figure out tactics etc.
I'm little bit disappointed that Freeman gives the marshalling yard as the target. I have liked his books, especially the War Diary because it’s handy reference. But there seems not to be a book without at least some errors. But if Freeman is right that all the other targets of the day were M/Ys it is perhaps an understandably error, there is so much data in the book.
It would be nice to have a BG history in one's bookself which would have all those little technical info on missions in it. Loadings, fuses used, routes used etc.

But thanks again, I’m deeply indebted
Juha
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  #15  
Old 15th October 2005, 19:26
Chris Going Chris Going is offline
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Re: Questions on 8th AF Swinemünde raid on 12 March 1945

Juha

Time to add some more to Thursdays posting on Mission Expenditure reports for March 12th 1945. The data are from USAAF Form 00-Amm-2BB, stamped by the Ordnance Officer, Hq 8th Air Force, APO 654 (I think) US Army, for March 12th 1945.

300M31 1000GP 1000RDX 500RDX 500M17 250GP 100GP P 500XII

1AD: 180 822 257 - 442 252 6,657 - -

2AD: - 918 162 4 - - 6,152 30 2

3AD: - 1097 057 - - 450 9,252 30 -

TOTs 180 2,837 476 4 442 702 22,341 60 2


Fusing details to follow asap.


ChrisG
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  #16  
Old 16th October 2005, 00:11
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Re: Questions on 8th AF Swinemünde raid on 12 March 1945

Thanks a lot again, Chris.
Delmenhorst gives 3.211 1000lb GP bombs dropped on Swinemünde if I calculated the figures right, and in Your list there are 3.293 those bombs. So it is still possible to accept both, even if that means that 97,5% of 1000lb GPs were dropped on Swinemünde. The problem is those 18 70 Incd dropped by 2AD according to Delmenhorst’s message. Those suit the description of M47A2 (an incendiary bomb of 70lb nominal weight), but according to Freeman, it was not used by 8th AF. But in Freeman’s War Manual there is surprisingly little on bombs when one remembers that the original raison d’être of 8th was the bombing, so there might be other bombs which suited in the description or maybe 500XII in Your list means M12 cluster. According to Freeman M12 was a cluster of 6lb M69 incendiary bombs. He doesn’t tell how many bombs there were in one cluster but 70*6lb makes 420lb, add to weight of the case or other material which keeps the cluster together one gets enough close to 500lb that the cluster might have got to nominal 500lb range. After all the M17 cluster had 110 4lb M50A1s. But according to Your list 2AD dropped only 2 500XII and only 6 500lb bombs altogether and there are 20 500lbs in Delmenhorst's list. Maybe at some level there has been a clerical error. Or maybe there just wasn’t column for every type of bombs in the loading sheets, so some were put down in the column the clerk thought as the nearest equivalent.
But You both seemed to agree that there were no fragmentation bombs and that's the most important info to me just now because of the book review. The other info is also important and have greatly enhanced my knowledge on the Swinemünde attack on which I knew next to nothing only a few weeks ago.
So again thanks a lot for Your input and effort
Juha
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  #17  
Old 16th October 2005, 20:15
Chris Going Chris Going is offline
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Re: Questions on 8th AF Swinemünde raid on 12 March 1945

Dear Juha

It would seem clear from these TOCH exchanges, which have brought to light the Ordnance expenditures for March 12th 1945, that Swinemuinde was not plastered with fragmentation bombs on that day, nor were the fuses used on the Ordnance dropped anything much out of the ordinary.
Your Review can nail this canard, therefore. I think it can also nail the attendant claim that there were very high casualty figures.

I think it is also clear that the target on the day was the Port, despite Freemans citation of the target as an M/Y. Since the remainder of the day's targets were Marshalling Yards, I think we have a clear typo.

You might wish to know a bit on the Intelligence asessments of the attack, which Delmenhorst cites. The SA report on the attack was issued on March 13th 1945. This is Report No SA 3376. The first post attack reconnaissance cover of the town was on March 15th 1945. This generated Report No K-Imm 3975, which was issued on March 16th 1945. The town was again photographed on March 21st 1945, and this resulted in Report No K-Imm Supp 3975, which was issued on March 23rd 1945. A Final report was issued on the same day (Report No K 3975). Two days later, on March 25th 1945 the town was again Photographed. No report on this imagery seems to have been issued.

Incidentally, I have seen RAF imagery of Swinemunde taken on May 4th 1945, while the town was under Russian air attack. Its amazing stuff, and unpublished still.

Best

Chris Going
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  #18  
Old 16th October 2005, 23:40
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Re: Questions on 8th AF Swinemünde raid on 12 March 1945

Hello Chris
and thanks a lot again for the identicication of the sources!

To both Chris and Carsten
I can only say to You both Thanks a lot for Your help!
The info You gave helped me greatly in the writing of the review.
I have now read the book and I’m doing the finishing touches to my review. I think that it’s important to get facts right on the Swinemünde attack. Even if at the time of Internet and of rather good foreign languages skills of Finns the translations are not so important that they used to be it’s still important to try to hinder the birth of new myths.
On Friedrich’s defence I have to say that usually he has got his facts right even if his book is in places rather one-sided and in a few places provocative.

Thankfully
Juha
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  #19  
Old 17th October 2005, 12:09
m.lang m.lang is offline
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Re: Questions on 8th AF Swinemünde raid on 12 March 1945

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juha
The book seems generally not be too imbalanced, even if the translation is awful in technical parts.


As the Finnish translator of the book Suuri palo, I would like to know what technical parts are actually translated in an awful way.
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  #20  
Old 17th October 2005, 14:29
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Re: Questions on 8th AF Swinemünde raid on 12 March 1945

M. Lang, because the nyances of Finnish language probably don't have wider appeal in this forum, I sent my answer to You as a private message.

Chris and Carsten
I forgot this. If You'll someday need some help concerning on the history of Finnish AF, please ask. I would try to help as well as i can.

Juha
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